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I'm just still surprised by that Pelicot case in France. How was he able to find dozens of men to do that, for years, without someone asking questions, tipping someone off, or just thinking, "Wait a minute...?"
Then we found out he was part of a network with hundreds of other men plotting and committing on doing the crime to their wives and some who’ve done it for years as well
That whole story is so fucking sick. There was even a registered nurse that was part of his network who early on taught him how to get the drug dosage dialed in correctly.
I’m depressed because I’m not surprised. Gang rape in college and the military is nothing new. And do you think those young men actually grow up into adults who finally understand consent?
From military bases like Fort Hood to Diddys yachts and Jeffery's Island....imagine all the underground stuff we don't know about. (Not like we do much about what we DO know about)
This is sort of what was the final nail in the coffin for me and my faith and church culture. I come from a background that admittedly hasn't had the massive global sex and pedophilia scandals of other churches (Greek Orthodox) but having experienced abuse my self and others in my family experiencing abuse...
it doesn't make sense how a God of love can exist and somewhere, right now a child is being hurt and no one is there to help them. Their pain will go forgotten and unwitnessed, the perfect time for God to step in... yet he doesn't. No one comes tk their rescue. They just keep getting hurt. If they survive, they often carry that pain in them the rest of their lives.
I am not religious but I hear all the time from devout religious voices claiming that God works through people.
Pretending that just because you are a good person means that your God is righteous God is so wild.
If pious and “good” people still give money to the Catholic Church to sustain an institution that has protected abusers then your god sucks and you don’t actually care and love everyone.
You love your privilege. (Meaning the people who turn a blind eye and claim that they aren’t giving their money to settle lawsuits they are giving it to the services that help people.) hilarious that you think you make a bit of difference with your intentions for your actions. When I refer to You I am directing it towards those who have these beliefs not the OG, the OP or the OOP.
And Jesus would be ashamed if he wasn’t a symbol of the institutional oppression that he is used as a symbol for you to feel good about yourself and sustain the system. The system isn’t broken, the system is people and the system is working as intended.
the now talked 7 students from Cornell, drugged a girl and warned on their chat group (of about 50 men), non of them told on them.
''At roughly 1:42 a.m., one of the men allegedly sent a message to the fraternity’s Snapchat group chat a message – titled “Chi Phi Actives” – stating there was “free p\ssy” upstairs.''*
gave her more drugs and draged this till 5:45 a.m.
another case in another university but i haven't read it full yet, but there are so many cases, its draining and at same time so enraging.
Same way other networks of abuse are created. Over time. Someone knows someone, who knows someone and meeting points online etc. The similar case in the UK atm was centred around an online space I believe. Presumably dark web. Kindred spirits given an opportunity who understand the need for being discreet but in the end slip up somehow. It's a dark world out there.
It’s not just dark networks. The Cornell case is a shining example of a culture and expectation of silence and complicity that is set for men, even “good guys” from “good families” with social standing and deep community ties. Frats are training grounds for how men are supposed to treat each other and those things carry on for life.
It builds identity, and they’re taught that not calling this stuff out is loyalty and friendship and not the dark and horrible behavior it truly is. It’s normalized and enables these guys to maintain their self image as a good person while behaving in a vile manner, or enabling or just not speaking up.
Agreed. It also reinforces their belief that if someone gets drunk, or is on drugs among trusted company--then you could totally rob/use/haze them because somehow...getting drunk or stoned makes you a terrible person worthy of harm.
I encounter this among a LOT of people (men and women). I literally have an uncle who participated in a gang-rape on a girl who was stoned (and his family defended him and allowed him around us girls constantly. My relatives claimed he did nothing wrong because the girl was on drugs. I had to point out that my uncle was ALSO constantly taking drugs, therefore was he supposed to be gangraped(?). Not one of them thought that people don't take mushrooms hoping to get raped, nor would they admit that my uncle may have been manipulative and misled a girl into thinking she was in a safe and trusted environment to get stoned. They just jumped to blaming a girl they didn't know because she 'took drugs', therefore she deserves to get hurt).
So TL;DR: Believing that people should get hurt for getting drunk/stoned/passing out is harmful, and letting people develop this belief makes them unsafe to others. If a friend thinks you're a piece of shit for getting drunk or stoned and won't protect you/make sure you get home safe/or even sees it as an opportunity to abusing you--then that is a fucked up way to live.
The other layer to this is a drunk/stoned/high person who was raped is usually seen as unreliable by authorities also. It is very common for a person being set up to be raped (and yes, these are not spur of the moment things that happen) to be drugged either against their will or willingly.
Yeah, and some places have/had police departments that would rather throw the victim in jail immediately and interrogate them about the drugs first before even thinking about dealing with the rape.
That's one of the issues about the war on drugs. My uncle committed the rape during the 1970s--when marijuana was still seen as a Class A drug and it's very likely that was why he and his buddies invited that girl to take some with them. I'm certain they hoped that she'd be too afraid to tell the police of what happened because of what she took. They also never hung out with her before or afterwards (so you were right that this is not a spur of the moment thing. It wasn't 'accidental', the perps never wanted to hang out with the victim in the first place or invite them back for another party/hangout. They fully planned to use, abuse and dispose of the victim before she even showed up).
Not just finding dozens of men: all of them were inside a frighteningly small geographical radius from them. Like, you'd think that this was about setting up some shit that required looking all over the country, potentially other countries, but it was all local. That's the most fucked up bit.
The thing is: as a woman, I didn't find it unexpected. At all.
What really surprised me with that case, was the men's reaction to it.
I expected the ones in denial ("she must have known", "it's impossible she never felt something was wrong", etc.), the ones dismissing ("yeah, it's just some bad apples, but what's really bad is those generalising about men because of it"), the ones trying to say it's not men just like them who are the problems ("these are not men, these are monsters", or the "it's immigrants once again" - nope, too bad for the far right, a majority were white French men). These are the usual reactions to the horrors women encounter, so no surprise here.
No, what was really surprising was the sheer amount of men finding it surprising. Like, are we even living in the same world??? Rapists are everywhere, and can be just about anyone, and there are more than just a few. Women have been saying it since decades at least.
It only showed me once more how little men listen to women, or if they did how little credit they give to what they say.
Exactly. I can go online and pull up a list of registered sex offenders in my area, knowing that those are only the ones who actually got caught and punished.
How could anyone be surprised is beyond me.
That's fucked up part of the fucked up part, we aren't. If you're one of the "regular men", creeps don't talk to you about their creep activities, and women don't tell you because you might also be one of the creeps, and there is no way to tell you aren't. For most of my life I as a man, lived in the world where I was absolutely completely sure that rapists are that weird separate group of people who are just completely bad, and you also need to be completely bad to even know one. The idea that your collegue, who is perfectly pleasant in a breakroom and tells funny stories on corporate cookouts, can abuse his wife of 12 years is fucking alien, because this just never happens.
I didn't have to call out weird behavior of my peers for decades. It might be because I surrounded myself with decent people. It might also be because creeps mask around me because I'm a known liberal soyboy and I don't know how to tell the difference.
The definition of enabling is making something possible, practice, or easier to do. They men in that chat made it all easier to do because not only did no one stop it or say anything. But it was sent there because it was know they wouldn’t. They made it easier by being part of that chat. They made it possible by being part of that chat. Yes they are the enablers.
My husband showed the news story to our son, including the group chat and asked hm what he'd do if he was in that group chat. We are making sure that our son 1. doesn't get butthurt when he hears 'all men' and 2. to take action when he witnesses misogyny.
I mean... The fraternity I was in wouldn't stand for that. We caught a guy jerking himself watching someone who had passed out, he was expelled from the fraternity within the week. We couldn't legally evict him from the premises for a month, but he wasn't allowed anywhere in the house other than his room, the laundry room, and the kitchen.
We also banned a 26 year old alumnus who kept showing up at parties to pick up Freshmen women, especially in the fall. He was restricted to only coming to our weekly chapter meeting and if it was a brothers only alumni event.
When I was in chapter leadership I made it my responsibility to make sure anyone (male or female) walked home with someone they trusted. I'm sure I missed a few during that year, but we tried to do our best.
I mean, I don't think they we're trying to say all frats are a problem, just that they can be. That problematic people can and will begin to self select and form a group.
It's good to hear about fraternities that are filled with well-meaning people. I know I don't need to say those are a minority, at least in terms of cultural visibility anyway.
And for point 2, men like to say, “see! 11% of women are just as bad! “ fully ignoring that that most that 11% are also killed by men (a father killing his son, a son killing his father, etc)
I would say there's an entire other tier in here for the work force regarding pay gaps, sexual harassment, women being less likely to receive promotions over less qualified men, attitudes towards female bosses, etc.
I think the biggest issue is that rapists don’t think of themselves as rapists. When the guys at Cornell got that text message they probably justified it in their heads. “She probably agreed to this ahead of time.” That’s why active consent is so important. You can look at the testimony of the men in the Gisele Pelicot case. Obviously they are trying to claim their innocence but I think a lot of them really believe they aren’t a rapist because they weren’t ferocious or aggressive. When people imagine rape as this monstrous attack and a woman screaming and fighting back, a man won’t see himself as a rapist if his rape doesn’t look exactly like that.
There was a guy that was a part of our cross country friend group in high school, but we all separated as we went to college. Well during a school break we were all back in town and he was on a run with my husband and the other guys and this dude said something about how he slept with this unconscious girl at a party and how she doesn’t remember it etc. The guys were like well were you also messed up?? The dude said no… every guy was like so you raped someone😐I don’t think it dawned on him of the severity of what he did until every other guy pointed it out to him. He was immediately cut off after that
I also think the consumption of porn has really impacted young men especially in being able to understand the difference between fantasy and reality. Like, free use is a common fantasy and porn scenario...it's not something you're going to (ethically) see in real life unless it is highly negotiated and consented to beforehand.
Not to excuse anyone, but rather to give evidence to how deep and systemic this issue lies.
When I was a freshman in university, every single freshman was required to go to. I think it was three seminars about sexual assault, and one of them was purely on what is consent and what is not consent both ethically and legally. They didn’t stop the multiple rapes that happened when I was there though both to me and my friends.
Open violence against women predates porn by all of human history. There used to be a law in England that a man couldn't beat his wife between an evening hour and a morning hour. I can't recall exact times, but it was something like 8pm to 8am. The issue wasn't that beating a woman was bad, but that her screaming would be too loud and disturb neighbors trying to sleep.
Men don't see themselves as rapists because we always blame the victims. Why would they ever think they are doing anything wrong when women have always been nothing more than life support systems for men?
This makes total sense. most rape isn’t violent. Most rape is where the victim gets confused, and questions if they are the reason it happened, how they played into it, they blame themselves, or think no one will believe that they didn’t want it, and that’s why the wouldn’t report/ask for help. Damn thats messed up.
I can speak from experience even when you know what’s happened to you. It’s still hard not to feel like it’s not your fault because everyone puts the blame on the woman these days.
The blame has always been on women and girls. Boys, too, for that matter. Anyone who is strong or powerful enough to take what they want is validated by virtue of society not making them accountable. We idolize bullies and monsters as long as they're male.
Mine was violent (occurred quite a few times over a timespan that was entirely too long, I was a minor child), and even speaking to those I thought were trusted adults, who subsequently didn’t believe me, I quit trying to say anything at all. So, sometimes even when it’s repeated, when you tell others, and nothing happens to the rapist, you just stop trying to get help.
I gained weight to make myself less “desirable,” and get to live with the consequences of an eating disorder well into my 40s now
So what some of y'all don't seem to understand, is that you want women to walk through the world with an "all men" mentality. "She should have known not to put herself into that position." "She shouldn't have been drinking." "She shouldn't have been wearing that." Etc. The implication is, she should have known that MEN can't control themselves. That any situation involving men, alcohol, drugs, walking at night, etc is her not being smart enough around men. So either women are supposed to think it's all men so she doesn't get assaulted, or she can be naive and say it's not every man and get assaulted. Saying it's "not all men" is invalid because women have to treat the world like it is all men otherwise those same men will say it's her fault for being assaulted.
The whole concept of she knew she put herself in that situation implies that she should be afraid of all men. It was her friend if you can’t be safe with your male friends then yes it’s all men
i hate the myth that rape/assault is committed by strangers to strangers. the vast majority of the time it will be someone you know. i was raped by someone i knew. all my friends who have been raped were raped by someone they knew.
Yeah like, the argument has never actually been that every single man in the world is a monster who would hurt you, but you have no idea who is and who isn't, and there are so many who are, that you kinda have to assume things about people. It's awful, but until we change as a society, women are forced to be wary of all men.
Kinda like how most people aren't thieves, but you have to view every stranger as a potential thief and not give them any opportunity to steal your shit.
It's also all men because women are dehumanized on a full spectrum. No credibility when we speak. Expectation that we are responsible for all relationship and domestic labor. Not being able to finish sentences even when we are Supreme Court justices. Given less food and other resources. Rape kits never tested. The bizarre belief that we can get pregnant all by ourselves. Having all pain dismissed to the point where we scream until we vomit and pass out when IUDs are implanted and are told we are overreacting. Child marriage still happening and girls just dropping off the radar with nobody giving a single fuck. The mental health diagnostic manual not having categories that apply to men to name any of the common forms of violence against us, while women who have and still live with violence get labeled with all kinds of mental illnesses.
Evidence of brutality against girls and women is everywhere. The Australian woman and her kids who were trapped in her car and lit on fire by her ex husband still had people talking about what she might have done to push him to it.
It's all men when they can't work up any empathy unless people frame women as "what if this were your wife or daughter" because we literally aren't relatable otherwise. The men who can't think of women as people until their first daughter is born, despite being in a committed relationship with the mother, are bizarrely delusional with that degree of shock.
We just don't register to them as human. We barely clock each other as human a lot of the time. It's how patriarchy keeps chugging along.
Reminds me of that interview with Saoirse Ronan and a few guys and the guys are talking about someone saying you can use your phone as a weapon when attacked.
They're laughing and talking over her like "Who thinks about that!?" "Yeah just patting for your phone as you're attacked"
Suddenly she just goes, "That's what girls have to think about all the time" and they all freeze and go dead silent. It's ridiculous to me that as much as women talk and talk about having to live cautiously and in fear that it STILL slips men's minds so easily.
This entire comment section is proving why we say all men. Because there are men what-abouting about how "well, actually, a woman did this too!", and arguing about the semantics of everything when what we are talking about here is a woman being violently raped for 7 hours by 7 men who was ignored by 50+ men.
The guys in that group chat were also saying, you don't have to say anything, just whip it out and go, than laughing about it. I believe a lot more than just 7 participated. This was a 7 hour long rape. There are guys in that group chat did more than just talk, I am sure.
For some reason, the chat that chilled my blood the most was the one saying something like "I love Chi Phi" after the free pussy comment. You love your toxic "brotherhood" because you can rape women?
Late last year I reconnected with a friend from high school that I hadn't spoken to in about 10 years. After talking and playing MTG together for a while, he would start ranting to me about his wife. Nearly all if it was stuff he made up in his head, about her being crazy because she's a woman, about her being a prude, about her being stupid because she's a woman. It started small, just a comment here or there. I pushed back whenever I felt like I had the context to do so, or whenever it was blatantly bigoted. At one point he tried to gaslight me thinking it would work because he gaslit her until she stopped pushing the issue.
I only went over there to hangout two more times after that, and he started talking about the content he consumes, mostly police dashcam/bodycam footage being commentated over. He made exactly the kind of comments you're imagining he did, depending on the profile of the person in the videos. Totally odd behavior, I told him on more than one occasion that he sounded racist, and homophobic, and sexist.
One time I was there, he was in the shower and his wife sat to eat lunch and find something to watch. She chose a video by a gay plant YouTuber I can't remember the name of, with a big ass cat. Anyway, the whole time she kept apologizing to me for how gay this must be and how she can really turn it off and watch something else. I felt bad for her, and I hope she can find a way out, because she deserves better.
I cut him out of my life entirely again. The renewed friendship probably only lasted 6 months.
I hope the wife of your former friend will wake up to the fact that her husband is a POS and leave. She doesn’t deserve to be ground down and apologetic for liking what she likes or being who she is.
She makes considerably more money than him, and their house is also solely in her name. I hope she finds it in herself to get up and go(or get up and kick him out), because she would genuinely be so much better off without him. They've been together since we were teenagers, so she didn't have much dating experience before him. I don't know how awake she is to it.
At least she goes on trips with friends to national parks and stuff, without him.
> I cut him out of my life entirely again. The renewed friendship probably only lasted 6 months.
This is the part of the cycle that no one really talks about because we're the types of guys who, if our friends exhibit this behavior and don't change after we've called it out then we just don't associate with them any longer. Then they just find the right people who will validate their cruelty or ignore it.
You know what though, give yourselves credit on this type of behavior. Your behavior is the part you can control. That’s where you can either do your best to stop, or add to the bigger problem.
You can’t control them finding a friend group that condones it. And I’ve never personally heard women gripe about the ones that try the way you guys are trying. There’s no expectation that it 100% solves the problem. There will always be violent creeps. The best we can aim for is the parts we can control.
You two are the things we hope for; men that are willing to do whatever is in their power, in that moment, to put an end to the stuff that contributes to the problem.
You win, you didn’t lose. There’s a bunch of small wins like that, and each one counts as a drop. It takes trillions of droplets to create a tsunami. If more men do what you two do, then soon there will be very few groups of men for guys insisting to stay like that to hang around. They’ll isolate themselves and eventually die off. Then the remaining women, girls, boys and men will be able to live a more peaceful, safe existence.
Good for you calling him out though. Unfortunately this is why people don't call it out. It goes against the status quo, and not everyone is brave enough to stand up. That's why we need to make sure these guys don't have a soft place to land. Or at the very least, make sure they are segregated away from the good men so we know who is who. Which of course happens by all the decent men cutting these dudes off. You did the right thing. You can't fix shit people.
Thing is I did the right thing but I lost out from it. Ultimately, still the right thing to do but no good deed goes unpunished. On the plus side I don’t have to spend time with the guy anymore. Once all this happened I just left the group. Posted in the chat saying ‘I’m leaving, last session just wasn’t what I wanted out of d&d’ then messaged the dm saying I’m leaving because I don’t want to force a ‘him or me situation’ but it was a bit disappointing no one stood up for me seeing as I’d been in the group longer. But I didn’t want to force people into that, you know?
It’s about calling out enablers too. I get that it’s tough/awkward/challenging/maybe even scary sometimes. Thank you for what you did regardless and I hope the other members have more confidence to call out bad behaviour in the future because they saw you do it.
I had to quit a job I loved because there were multiple racist freaks on the team. I reported everyone, they got fired and I quit the job because of my disappointment with the entire team. You should always follow your principles, even when it results in some negative outcome for yourself - that is the cost of standing up for one's beliefs sometimes. I think you (and myself) did the right thing overall, at the very least for not having to interact with those people any longer.
I replied to your comment above with a similar story, but this reminded me of something. By cutting him out, I have lost my connection to a large MTG group who gets together to play commander or draft nights or board games. It sucks, because I really love that kind of thing, and everyone else in the group was really cool and normal.
Respectfully, why didn’t you stay and force the issue?
I do mean respectfully. I get speaking up against friends and shifting the culture of a group is hard. I’m not attacking you. I am inviting you to think deeper.
Referencing the 4 categories in the video, based on what you just said, you ducked down to the “men we aren’t talking about” category for one D&D session.
And then quickly moved right back into the “Men who do nothing wrong” category you had occupied up until you spoke up.
Especially since you had seniority, you could have lobbied people to get the jerk making the jokes kicked out. You could have tried harder to change the culture.
Maybe the other guys didn’t speak up, because they were waiting to see what would happen. Silence doesn’t always equal agreement as you yourself know.
No one said this was easy.
If the guys who don’t believe that crap like you just leave the spaces, who is left to voice the objections?
It’s not gonna be fixed by speaking up once to one prick. It’s such an ongoing, systemic issue that it’s gonna require constant effort from many many people. You did your part on that one and it didn’t personally benefit you in that exact situation as far as staying in that gaming group goes. But overall, look at the bigger picture. If you didn’t speak up, you’d be stuck gaming with an asshole. And do you really want to game with asshole enablers, who sit there making excuses for him? So maybe in that situation you did actually benefit in the end? Hopefully you found a better group of cool people that aren’t like that cuz plenty of dnd groups are looking for people like you.
But, if more people keep doing exactly what you did, even if it costs them short term inconvenience, the benefits comes in the form of the greater good for all. Which makes yours and everyone else’s lives better.
It shifts situations like that where the norm was one decent guy at a table full of an asshole and asshole enablers, to the norm being an unspoken “no assholes allowed so don’t even go there”.
What if society reaches a point where so few people dare to be assholes cuz they know the societal blowback isn’t worth the consequences?
It can get there if enough people make their normal everyday behavior the way you handled that dnd game.
every time one person in the group says something, that’s a chance for all of the others to reconsider what’s happening. Just because you don’t see immediate results doesn’t mean it means nothing. Maybe that’s the first time any of them have faced opposition to their beliefs. Maybe after ten yous say something, they might start to get it.
No one said it would be easy, but you have to keep doing the right thing even if you lose d&d groups and friends over it. Nothing changes unless something changes. And it has to start small. And like this guy says, it has to be fixed by men.
Good for you for having a spine. All of those men suck—defending a bigot with a DUI.. how on earth is that seen as a defensible position..
I would also argue that you did get something good from the experience—the knowledge that these men are okay with viewing certain groups of people as lesser—so now you getthe privilege of not playing with bigots to spend time with people who care about you, including yourself :)
Sometimes doing the right thing doesn't benefit you. It's still important and good you did it. Even though that guy didn't change, you showed the others that someone thinks what he was saying was wrong. You might have made a difference to how they view the world and make them think twice before parroting the same crap (even though they might not have admitted it out loud).
Fuck those guys. They all suck, and they all suck so much they don’t realize it. I grew up in predominantly male spaces because of my interests and being the only girl in a group of guys, you really don’t have any allies, so it can be difficult to speak up and defend yourself, I used to play it nice, hoping if I was nice enough, I could prove myself enough that I would be respected as much as the guys in the group, like I was the problem. Guess what? It doesn’t work. Even if you do make some progress with one group of guys, it doesn’t carry outside of that group. I’d always be back to square one at some point. The problem was, and continues to be sexist, misogynistic and patriarchal mentalities, not me. So I decided to be an ally to other girls women. There were usually none of their present, but they might come after me. So these days, I just call that sexist shit out. I try to be civil about it, and I try to do it in a way that won’t make somebody defensive, but I am direct. I often take a hit for this. But the guy, if he’s a decent guy, even if he gets defensive and doubles down with me, hopefully he’ll change his behavior with other girls and women going forward.
I had to pull out the awkward laugh too often with coworkers at my last job. This video had me feeling self conscious about it but it's really hard to navigate that sort of thing at work especially with people in higher positions. Also, considering I was generally working on construction sites, it would have been an uphill battle.
I genuinely think the only way to do it is to just call them out. "Uncomfortable" makes them feel like they have the upper hand, that's how most men are. Tell them to stfu and not be sexist. They want a domination contest? Give it to them. Win it. In the name of equal rights you have to use the same methods as them.
I've always understood its all men to refer to the perspective that to a potential victim, it literally could be any man, because of the systems and enabling that this mentions, we have no way of know which men so we have to act as if its all men.
Another way to think about this is from the perspective of meeting new people. You are a woman and meet a man for the first time. If he's a normal well adjusted person without violent jmpulses who understand you're a human being with independent thoughts and feelings then he's no threat to you. But if he's not... And none of those quality are visible when you meet people. It can take literal years to determine if a man is going to hurt you or somebody else. And even after years... Well we've all seen headlines about nobody suspecting that the guy who was just arrested had three people chained up in his basement he seemed so normal...
To your last point, in the Cornell case that started this most recent online firestorm, the reason that girl was even at the frat house was because she was there to hang out with her friend who she trusted. And after getting her high on ketamine, he was the one who texted the group chat inviting the other guys to come rape her.
This was her friend, someone she thought she could trust. As with most cases, rape and trafficking almost always comes from a man the woman personally knows, not a stranger.
I blew up a friendship when I was in high school because my buddy was showing a nude that some girl sent him, and I told her. I have 2 sisters and all I could think about was “what if it was one of them.”
I had this great response about rhetoric vs discourse, underscoring what I think this guy gets right and wrong, and explaining the nuance I see to this topic, but then deleted it all because I’m pretty sure no one comes here to understand anything.
Yea I think the problem is that when men are persecuted, they just assume that it's by women. The whole men's rights movement is essentially complaining about patriarchy but blaming it on women
Reminds me of the men who bitch and gripe about the "male loneliness epidemic" when the majority of them 1) don't functionally do anything to make themselves less lonely and 2) tend to blame the problem almost exclusively on women. Turns out, women don't tend to want to date men when they have to be a stand-in for their mommy, maid, and nanny and the man doesn't see anything wrong with the way he currently lives, not even getting into the topic of how "loneliness" to far too many people us primarily defined by romantic relationships and neglects anything to do with platonic friendships.
To be fair, as a young man I copped flack from seemingly out of nowhere which definately made me feel persecuted at times. Not having enough understanding about the world and where other people are coming from.
The complaint: "Too many men ignore the conditions that enable rape and sexual harassment, and that makes associating with men dangerous"
The message: "All men..."
What problematic women say: "You're a piece of shit because you're a man"
What problematic men say: "Women think you're a piece of shit because you're a man"
It really does not take a lot for a young man, insecure about his place in the world, to take onboard that he should be hated for being a man.
I'm not saying feeling that way should be overlooked, or that women don't face any similar troubles, or that it excuses men's behaviour, or whatever. But, without addressing it, solving gender relations will be exponentially harder.
Truly dont understand how victim blaming is worse than groping or revenge porn or safe word violations and actual threats.... also fucking stalking is that low??????
I used to work in a care home looking after dementia patients. When I first started the other staff told me about an old lady who would always offer everyone Malteasers. They told me do not ever take one, because she'd roll up a ball of her shit and put it in the box. When you know there's a box of perfectly good Malteasers and one ball of shit, you stay away from the box entirely.
I feel like this is a good analogy for how women increasingly view dating and relationships, who can blame them, why risk it.
I went to an all-boy military college prep boarding school. In one of my classes, the 1st Sgt (and don't call him "Sir", or you'd do push-ups) would goad the boys into telling him about their weekend sexcapades. I spoke up once and mentioned that I have a sister and I would hate for her to be spoken about in that way, and the man called me a "pouf". Granted, I am totally gay, so he wasn't wrong, but that was still a weird feeling for a 16- year old to have. God, I miss all those penises
Never once in my life has a guy promoted sexual assault, grooming, domestic violence, or date rape in front of me. If you have dudes that feel comfortable saying that around you, maybe you should take a look at yourself. Gender war is fake. The rich want us to worry about race and gender when the issue is class.
It is all men. All men are capable of both good and bad actions. Given that the system empowers and protects the worst of us, it is rational to be cautious.
If your catch phrase makes this much of a negative first impression with people that would otherwise be your supporters, you should change your catch phrase.
Its not working, even explaining it isnt helping. Its creating a dumb gender war while damaging the cause it is supposed to be raising awareness of.
Optics matter to things like this, having a message that can not be miss interpreted is important. Continuing with this messaging is a failing strategy
I have a pet theory that many of the obtuse and controversial catch phrases that come from leftist circles are psyops from government agencies trying to prevent progressive movement.
The insane defense of no-nuance phrases that, if altered, would communicate more effective messaging feels like intentional destabilization of otherwise obvious positions.
Even misogynists usually think most men are dangerous, so this position should be a general-public slam dunk, right?
It’s yet another example of catchy slogans said by progressives that sound good at rallies and sound bites but absolutely fall apart the moment they move away from the echo chamber.
Feminism’s reputation is already on its arse and it’s shit like this that’s the cause of it. Guarantee in a couple of months there’ll be another poll out that shows support has dropped even further.
Chuck ‘yes all men’ in the Progressive Own Goal Hall of Fame, right next to ‘No one is illegal on stolen land’, ‘Defund the police’ and ‘Latinx’
Defund the police is the perfect example, the goal was never to actually defund the police it was to de militarize the police and redirect spending to training. my small town of 30k people has 4 armored vans and a new fleet of brand new police suvs ever other year, and only 6 weeks of training.
I fully support that movement but it was never able to get past that failed messaging with a huge section of people taking it at face value.
Collective blame makes the men you want on side defensive, and gives the actual abusers cover by spreading the guilt so thin it stops meaning anything.
They don't want results, they just want to shout to feel better.
Do you think any man who would perpetrate or condone rape would hear this and go "Ohhhhh...I never thought of it THAT way."
They're Predators, plain and simple. All you can do is keep an eye out for them, teach your children to do the same, and avoid being around them as much as possible, regardless of gender.
This must be a part of social media culture that I don’t see. I’ve never heard someone say “all men” nor have I heard anyone defend “all men”. My advice is for people to step away from these dumb symantic social media arguments and just try and do the right thing in your life.
I get what he’s trying to say but wouldn’t this umbrella include all women too? Are there no women working in the government or in schools passively enabling this?
People say thing that generalizes an entire group of people
People in that group get mad
WOW WHY WOULD YOU TAKE IT LIKE THAT? YOU KNOW WHAT HE MEANT!
Like, I get the point but its funny how there are only certain groups of people it's a-ok to talk about like this
E: I love making comments like this where the stats show people downvoting but none of y'all can back it up with an argument. Just admit you're sexist and dispense with the holier-than-thou attitude you spend your days cooking up in a spoon.
I was going to say something like "not all men perpetrate it, but all women experience it" would be more clear and concise, but we had something similar in the past with the yes all women hashtag, which was a response to the not all men hashtag, which was the sexist response to the me too movement, so even that would get pushback
Even then, it's estimated 1 in 4 women experience rape or some form of SA/SH, while men experience it at AT LEAST a 1 in 6 rate, but many think the number could ALSO be 1 in 4, but it's just so severely underreported for male victims
"all men" doesn't pass the gender or race swap test. Its a utterly flawed slogan and is actively harmful for actually discussing and solving the problems.
Being called a problem when you have not participated in or witnessed said problem really does put you off from trying to have a discussion about it. O I am already judged? K good luck with that imma live my life over here.
The amount of men I’ve seen running to the comment sections online in the defence of the 7 men who raped a heavily intoxicated and unconscious young woman is very alarming and depressing to see in 2026.
It’s so bad in some corners of the internet - everything from people villainizing and undermining the victim who was raped for seven hours straight, at a frat house she went to with a friend. 50 young men in a group chat that knew what was taking place and none of them offered to help or interject. And the person getting torn to shreds is the woman.
Honestly, the patriarchy has always been a problem for women and men alike in this world (not feminism - as a very confused user said in this comment section) but the uprising of global far right authoritarianism seems to be adding fuel to the already out of control misogyny you can see on display every day out in the real world.
Women are considered a marginalized group in the world amongst those of colour, LGBTQ+, those with disabilities, etc.
We are like a literal line of dominos and if one falls - the rest of the groups are soon to be targeted in the wake.
When it comes to women experiencing sexual abuse and other forms of violence (physical, emotional, verbal) at the hands of men - there are way too many instances of it happening to one woman throughout her lifetime, let alone the all encompassing harassment and abuse that is endured as a whole.
Everything from random attacks by strangers & those familiar to women in their communities - but more often and even more insidious - the violence being conducted against her is most often the men who are the closest. So yes, her father, brother, cousin, friend, boyfriend or more likely than not husband.
It’s something you can find happening to women in every country on the planet - regardless of their standing in society, regardless of finances, upbringing, ethnic background, personality, etc.
It is a large systemic issue that was once put in the spotlight by the me too movement. And now it’s coming back rebranded as “it’s not all men but it’s always a man” or “I choose the bear”.
It will keep happening until something changes and if it doesn’t I think you will continue to see an emergence of more single, childfree women in countries where women are entitled to their freedom and bodily autonomy. You will see more women running for positions in power in society to change the rules from the inside or help women more efficiently (think judges, doctors, politicians, lawyers, etc.).
Women have fought long and hard to get where they are now and aren’t about to stop anytime soon.
TLDR; If you want to be a good man and break the stereotype - good news, it’s really simple.
If you hear or see something that helps support the foundation of violence against women - say or do something to break the cycle. If you don’t, you are part of the problem.
The message itself has always been called out for repeatedly needing an explanation for people to realise they’re actually in support of it.
If the phrase constantly produces this level of misunderstanding, maybe the message needs to be tuned or changed so people can immediately understand what it’s trying to say instead of producing another gender war in the comments that helps no one and takes away from the underlying message.
Well not all men obviously. I'm talking about the abusers, the rapists, those who harm women. No not you Timmy. Why are you even upset, if you aren't one of the men I'm even talking about.
Rhetorical overreach kills your ethos. Saying "All men", which like it or not has a specific definition, includes your would-be allies. They could just as easily say "Those men", and it would be more accurate. Those words don't elicit the same reaction that they want to elicit, which is to trigger "all men". They are saying what they mean. Don't piss on us and call it rain.
So, we say "it's all men" because we want to generate a sense of collective responsibility in all men to stand against SA against women?
This is literally the first time I've ever heard this, and I certainly wouldn't have intuited this without it being explained to me first. Not to mention, when I see any messaging that starts with "It's all <insert any diverse group of humans here>" I tend to automatically become suspicious of the individuals saying it. It sounds like prejudice.
What I'm getting at is, maybe this isn't the best approach if people en masse are misunderstanding the messaging in such a damaging way. This guy seems absolutely over this topic, and I suspect that's because he's dealt with it so often. This is an optics problem.
I understand the point now, but when you say "it's all men" you run the risk of people thinking you actually mean it's all men.
But its inherently confusing. I mean the fact that its "all men" yet within his structure there's a category of "if you're here it doesn't apply to you" shows how confused it is. So it's all men (oh except this sizeable group).... so maybe not all men then?
Maybe it would make more sense to say "turning a blind eye makes you complicit" to get the point across in a way that doesn't alienate the very people who're already doing the right thing.
Because honestly, it is of course offensive and alienating to hear that 'all men' are complicit in SA, if you're someone who risks their physical health to help others for zero personal gain. And that's why im suspicious of such linguistic framings, because they actually almost seem engineered to hurt the exact people who already conduct themselves in the right way.
Right we can address these issues of abuse and oppression without sweeping generalisations, lets talk about why this happened, why the guys at the University feel privileged to do it and the culture there.
I was for the phrase “All men” until I read this. Now I’m not so sure how I feel about it. This really does put it in a different light, and I’ve known of people who felt this way unironically about black people, and they were pretty damn racist.
There’s gotta be a better way to phrase it without the sweeping generalization. I also feel like it does contribute to a huge loneliness issue on both sides of the aisle.
Women's fear and sense of danger around men is justified, but vocally broadcasting and generalizing all men only makes the problem worse and isolates men who have the potential to be good/allies.
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