I'm just still surprised by that Pelicot case in France. How was he able to find dozens of men to do that, for years, without someone asking questions, tipping someone off, or just thinking, "Wait a minute...?"
Same way other networks of abuse are created. Over time. Someone knows someone, who knows someone and meeting points online etc. The similar case in the UK atm was centred around an online space I believe. Presumably dark web. Kindred spirits given an opportunity who understand the need for being discreet but in the end slip up somehow. It's a dark world out there.
It’s not just dark networks. The Cornell case is a shining example of a culture and expectation of silence and complicity that is set for men, even “good guys” from “good families” with social standing and deep community ties. Frats are training grounds for how men are supposed to treat each other and those things carry on for life.
It builds identity, and they’re taught that not calling this stuff out is loyalty and friendship and not the dark and horrible behavior it truly is. It’s normalized and enables these guys to maintain their self image as a good person while behaving in a vile manner, or enabling or just not speaking up.
Agreed. It also reinforces their belief that if someone gets drunk, or is on drugs among trusted company--then you could totally rob/use/haze them because somehow...getting drunk or stoned makes you a terrible person worthy of harm.
I encounter this among a LOT of people (men and women). I literally have an uncle who participated in a gang-rape on a girl who was stoned (and his family defended him and allowed him around us girls constantly. My relatives claimed he did nothing wrong because the girl was on drugs. I had to point out that my uncle was ALSO constantly taking drugs, therefore was he supposed to be gangraped(?). Not one of them thought that people don't take mushrooms hoping to get raped, nor would they admit that my uncle may have been manipulative and misled a girl into thinking she was in a safe and trusted environment to get stoned. They just jumped to blaming a girl they didn't know because she 'took drugs', therefore she deserves to get hurt).
So TL;DR: Believing that people should get hurt for getting drunk/stoned/passing out is harmful, and letting people develop this belief makes them unsafe to others. If a friend thinks you're a piece of shit for getting drunk or stoned and won't protect you/make sure you get home safe/or even sees it as an opportunity to abusing you--then that is a fucked up way to live.
The other layer to this is a drunk/stoned/high person who was raped is usually seen as unreliable by authorities also. It is very common for a person being set up to be raped (and yes, these are not spur of the moment things that happen) to be drugged either against their will or willingly.
Yeah, and some places have/had police departments that would rather throw the victim in jail immediately and interrogate them about the drugs first before even thinking about dealing with the rape.
That's one of the issues about the war on drugs. My uncle committed the rape during the 1970s--when marijuana was still seen as a Class A drug and it's very likely that was why he and his buddies invited that girl to take some with them. I'm certain they hoped that she'd be too afraid to tell the police of what happened because of what she took. They also never hung out with her before or afterwards (so you were right that this is not a spur of the moment thing. It wasn't 'accidental', the perps never wanted to hang out with the victim in the first place or invite them back for another party/hangout. They fully planned to use, abuse and dispose of the victim before she even showed up).
That's not what happened here at all though, she never indicated that anything was ever done against her will. She gave them nothing they could charge on. Mind you I'm not saying it was right, but in this case that wasn't the problem.
I'm going to need you to be specific here. We still talking about the Cornell situation? Because if so, no one goes, "Hey! Pass the vodka! I want to get drunk til I black out because I want you guys to fuck me for 4 hours (and keep putting more drugs in my mouth--potentially killing me if you fuck up the dosage) so that I can't feel a damn thing and can't even get off. I've been looking forward to this all week!"
Those baby-faced bastards over at Cornell are fucking lucky that she didn't die. Because previous rapists like Karla Homolka used drugs and screw up the dosage (in the case of Homolka, she was a vet who knew how to carefully measure dosage before using them on her first victim. Still caused the victim to vomit uncontrollably and suffocate because she was unconscious).
Especially since, as someone who knows stoners and rich affluenza types that try to use drugs--many of them buy shit online from people they don't even know or even seen, and several just...take shit without even checking if what they bought was actually the right kind of mushroom, actual hashish, cannabis, or any of the 'legal highs' (which were designed to keep cops/paramedics from knowing what you even took. I went to school with a bunch of rich kids who bought and ingested 'meow meows' and were immediately hospitalised. They thought they were taking some synthesized African herb. Turned out it was an adulterated concoction made from nitrogen-based fertilizer).
I doubt that Cornell frat house even has a basement chemistry set to check that whatever they fed that girl for four hours was 100% rohypnol or whatever. Same like what my uncle did--he bought drugs, doesn't even check what the fuck they are, and ingests them or gets people to take them.
That girl my uncle raped could've died. That girl in Cornell could've died. It was vicious, predatory negligence and I'm 100% certain those guys would've kept going if she died on that bed.
the guys also took the drugs. she has stated she took the drugs on her own will, and that at least the initial threesome was consensual.
she also said that she performed oral sex on a guy that was passed out.
We dont have enough information about the later hours, so she could have been raped later on.
but she took the drugs willingly and had sex with the initial guys willingly. You are taking all autonomy away from this woman, even though she herself has stated that she did it willingly.
>and I'm 100% certain those guys would've kept going if she died on that bed.
Dude, this isn't a Greek tragedy. Just because she started with two guys doesn't mean she can't say no to four other people joining in--especially when she was lucid enough to tell them to stop and swatted one guy away with a hand.
They also fed her more ketamine when she was incapacitated and barely able to stand. They literally had to walk her into another room. Let me state that once again, as someone who watched people choke on their vomit while drunk (and saw criminal rape cases where victims died from ingesting drugs that may or may not be what the rapists thought they were), what those guys did was beyond stupid and negligent.
just creating scenarios to get mad at.
just creating scenarios to get mad at.
Well then! Clearly you got proof that all six guys are so caring and friendly towards her! Why don't you show us how it's all just a big misunderstanding and the Cornell 6 were just having a super joyful, loving group sex and none of them touched her until she waved in each one like an excited baton-wielding air traffic controller.
Does anybody really view frat boys as “good guys” though? They already have this reputation and have for some time. I get that there is a veneer of presentability but people join frats to party, hook up and benefit from generational privilege. I’d argue greek life is really its own kind of dark network in the atmosphere it fosters. Obviously yes even outwardly presentable people can be rapists but this kind of coordinated evil is made possible through the network itself. I’d imagine this kind of crime would not even be possible for the average college student in a number of ways.
I mean these are the guys getting opportunities and places in society when they graduate, the connections and leg up they tout are real and it’s still something they can use on a resume so I’d say yes in a lot of circles, ones that very much matter for your career and upward mobility.
There are still many fields where spots are taken up by these guys even before others have a chance, simply put of affiliation.
Right, I see your point and agree but idk if i’d use the term good since most normal people have contempt for that kind of nepotistic social engineering. They are recipients of favors in a vast network of wealth and privilege but most of us here probably wouldn’t see that as a sign of moral good or even competence.
But it's not the same. Dominique filmed his crimes and recruited people nationally (and locally) through the Internet. This isn't a campus based culture. It was national and a forum was at the centre of it.
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u/eur26 3d ago
I'm just still surprised by that Pelicot case in France. How was he able to find dozens of men to do that, for years, without someone asking questions, tipping someone off, or just thinking, "Wait a minute...?"