r/gaming • u/Asianboiforwhitedad • 10h ago

Kingdom Come Deliverance studio co-founder says a lot of RPGs are 'still games for teenagers,' and that he's 'tired of all the RPGs where you are this chosen one'

https://www.pcgamer.com/games/rpg/kingdom-come-deliverance-studio-co-founder-says-a-lot-of-rpgs-are-still-games-for-teenagers-and-that-hes-tired-of-all-the-rpgs-where-you-are-this-chosen-one/
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u/SpoofSide 9h ago

Yeah, do it like fallout 2, where you're the chosen one but no one gives a shit or they think you're a lunatic.

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u/NomadSoul22 9h ago

Or fallout NV you are just a courier and then you fuck everyone up

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u/jpfeifer22 6h ago

Fallout 3: "I have to find my dad."

Fallout 4: "I have to find my son."

Fallout New Vegas: "I'm fuckin' PISSED."

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u/Folca-5000 5h ago

and this is part of why NV is so beloved. you arent special or on an important quest to start with. shit luck happened and now you are out to make it everyone elses PROBLEM

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u/Taiyaki11 4h ago

The premise especially lends itself naturally to the player's motivations as well. There's no disconnect between the player's motives and the character's. You got shot. How important that is or isn't is yours to decide wether you beeline to finding the guy or screw around the world instead, it doesn't create an odd disconnect like 4 where the player maybe just wants to explore the world but the character is constantly worrying about their lost son and talking about how they need to find him right away.

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u/[deleted] 1h ago

[deleted]

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u/STRYKER3008 1h ago

I could only do an evil run of FNV if I never meet Boone. He's like the proto Kim Kitsuragi haha

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u/RoyBeer 1h ago

We had a small run as Goblins against our own to-be PCs during a D&D weekend to introduce them to ourselves in an entertaining way. It was pretty fun and I was kinda bummed when I was told to switch from my Goblin to a Human haha

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u/nothinfollowsme 3h ago

Bravo Todd!

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u/Magma_Axis 2h ago

So Revenge theme RPG are the hotness right now ?

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u/Llayanna 1h ago

..you do know how old New Vegas is, right? 

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u/Laser_Souls 59m ago

“God let me live another day and I’m making it everyone else’s problem”

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u/BicFleetwood 4h ago

Courier is like "God damn you and also everyone you've ever associated with or passed on the street."

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u/Raffle-Taffle 9h ago

What I love about New Vegas is how you will yourself into the main conflict after essentially becoming a legend. The person who survives being shot in the head traverses across a hostile landscape making a name for themselves (doing quests), kills the man who shot him, and becomes the first person to enter The Lucky 38 to have a personal audience with Mr. House.

I appreciate how all the factions want you on their side because they can see The Courier is someone who can get shit done.

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u/Altruistic-Ad-408 9h ago

Technically Ulysses was going to be THE courier, but you were special, I can't remember why, probably vague meta commentary.

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u/aeroeagleAC 9h ago

I think ulysses just refused and you were second choice if I remember correctly 

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u/Ondrion 9h ago

Ulysses sees your name as the backup choice and refuses the job because of it. Something to do with you being the courier who caused the divide of I remember correctly.

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u/MonaganX 7h ago

Yeah, he just wanted you to take the job because he thought it would kill you, he was half right I guess.

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u/I_eat_mud_ 8h ago

Yeah your character has amnesia about the Divide incident for some reason I can't remember

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u/ADrunkEevee 6h ago

Not amnesia, they just didn't know. For them it was a delivery, nothing more.

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u/UNC_Samurai 8h ago

Lonesome Road as a setting is fine, but Ulysses and the way they stapled the Courier’s backstory into the narrative left a lot to be desired.

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u/skrid54321 5h ago

It was definitely intended from the outset. I think the issue is no one else recognizes you, so it feels out of nowhere, because you have nothing of your old life. A few references in the main game would have helped a lot.

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u/RefrigeratorWide2894 5h ago

I think the story works better if you view it as Ulysses was the courier who brought the bomb to the divide and his PTSD refuses to let him acknowledge that. I don't think there's much in game to actually support this viewpoint but it's my headcannon

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u/ADrunkEevee 6h ago

I mean, all they really said is that the courier was a courier.

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u/Ison--J 7h ago

Some reason. The 9mm sized hole in your skull

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u/ADrunkEevee 6h ago

The courier does not have amnesia at any point

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u/big_duo3674 5h ago

Nah, no hole there anymore! Doc sewed your brain chunks back roughly where he thought they belonged and hit you with a stim pack, good as new...or close at least. Those memories were probably one of the chunks he put back in the wrong spot

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u/I_eat_mud_ 7h ago

Your character is still able to remember their childhood and shit based off dialogue choices, it's just lazy writing.

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u/Pepperh4m 6h ago

I mean, memory works in weird ways. There's been incidents just like that in real life where people only lost their more recent memories but retained the more formative ones.

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u/big_duo3674 5h ago

...yeah, but the brain was just like sewed back together with Doc Mitchell basically saying he guessed where some things went, then he hit you with a stim pack and all was well. No surprise some memories got lost, probably still on the ground in the graveyard, the pieces he missed

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u/versusChou 11m ago

I'm pretty sure your character remembers the Divide, but as a courier, you took many packages into the Divide and around. From what I understand, you didn't know that one of your packages to the Divide is what caused all the nukes to go off. From your POV, you worked normal delivery jobs all your life and one day not long after you did one to the Divide, you hear that something happened in the Divide and it's not accessible anymore. To you, it's just another thing that happened. New Canaan got wiped out later. According to the show, Novac basically becomes ruins. In the setting, a town suddenly collapsing or disappearing isn't really unheard of, and you have no reason to think your package caused it. And that's what pisses off Ulysses. He's mad that you don't even realize that your actions (innocent as they were) fundamentally altered the Mojave and his life. And that you've basically kept derping through life changing the world for better or for worse for everyone else without any real intentionality. The funny thing is, the show basically implies that nothing the Courier did really mattered, so Ulysses was wrong.

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u/BathB0mbShelter 5h ago

You got shot in the head

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u/ZMowlcher 6h ago

I rp he's lying

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u/Freak7factor 5h ago

Like regular mail

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u/Altruistic-Ad-408 9h ago

You're the chosen one of Arroyo, your character is kinda crazy if they mention it to randos.

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u/Prof_Outis 8h ago

Yeah. It's like being a big deal back in your hometown of Cornfucker Iowa, and proudly telling random New Yorkers that you're an important guy.

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u/fallouthirteen 5h ago

Yeah, like technically sure you're one of the descendants of the founder (who was the first game's vault dweller, who was a big deal) and you completed the weird temple trial in your village but that's about it.

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u/Old_Leopard1844 PC 4m ago

80 years later not whole lot gonna remember Vault Dweller either. Only one surviving is Tandi, NCR president, who was girl VD rescued back in 1 iirc, but everyone else seems to either not know or not care. And besides, Vault Dweller did what? Nuked a church and stopped some supermutants not everyone even were aware of?

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u/DoloresStrategist 8h ago

Morrowind had the best version of this. You might be the prophesied reincarnation of an ancient hero, but for the first 20 hours everyone just calls you an outlander and you get beaten to death by a mudcrab behind Seyda Neen.

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u/nhalliday 8h ago

You aren't even definitively Nerevar reborn. You just happen to meet the birth requirements and manually go fulfill the tasks the Nerevarine is supposed to do. But it's left unclear whether that means you are actually his reincarnation, if reincarnation even truly exists for that to happen, or just someone who became the hero Vvardenfell needed.

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u/Kraelman 4h ago

Yeah, but thats just kinda the way of prophesied heroes/messiahs/etc. There’s no “hey the dude is going to be named tim and he’ll be born in ontario in 1978”. The Jewish Messiah for example is never named, he just has to be from the line of David and be a conquering king that brings lasting peace to Israel. If you do those things you are the jewish messiah.

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u/WhoLostTheFruit 4h ago

Exactly, which is why Morrowind sits apart from most other video games. It's approach is much more grounded in real world mythology, instead of being a blatant power fantasy.

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u/TheBeckofKevin 4h ago

such a good game, my all time absolute favorite and I don't think its just nostalgia. Its a legit good game, but you have to play it like you're a good player at a d&d table or something. Its so easy to break and ruin everything that you have to sort of 'play along' which I honestly think is missing in a lot of modern games.

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u/Dusty170 5h ago

Surely the tasks you do can't be done by any casual rando though? You'd have to be pretty mighty to fight gods n shit.

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u/Wise_Leopard7423 4h ago

You are not the first person to try, just the first to succeed. Did you succeed because you are the reincarnation of Nerevar, or are you declared to be Nerevar's reincarnation because you suceeded?

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u/MeekAndUninteresting 3h ago

That's the thing about Elder Scrolls. One way to become a god is to act as an existing one does (or would) until there is no meaningful difference between you. Another is to face difficult trials. You're doing two different things that can indeed make any casual rando into someone who can fight gods.

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u/Anonymous_Jr 3h ago

The right dragonborn in the wrong plane can make all the Elder Scrolls in the world.

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u/StealthRabbi 6h ago

Or just throw the papers for Caius Cosades docs in the trash and fuck around for 100 hours. Also Tamriel Rebuilt for lots of extra stuff.

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u/ColdCruise 5h ago

Oblivion had you as the chosen one's sidekick.

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u/CreepingCoins 2h ago

I've always liked how at the end of Morrowind, Dagoth Ur, the big bad, asks if you're really the reincarnation of Nerevar, and it's up to you to decide for yourself when you answer him. You can be like, "Yeah, totally," "Nah, I'm an impostor," or "Your guess is as good as mine." It doesn't affect the final battle, but it's a nice touch.

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u/btrust02 9h ago

Morrowind like this as well. Replaying it and it’s so refreshing

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u/MostyIncompetent 8h ago

Well, I mean, you kinda are since you are the Nerevar reborn. BUT, its done brilliantly. You are a nobody and the trials to become the Nerevar are subjective. Morrowind would've been better if you weren't Azura's champion, but outside of that. I do agree, that it's brilliantly done. You have to EARN the right to become Nerevar reborn.

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u/Unicorn_Colombo 8h ago edited 7h ago

Well, I mean, you kinda are since you are the Nerevar reborn.

Whether you are Nerevar Reborn is kept unclear.

You are guy who met all the requirements, out of some 8 previous dudes who didn't.

Not even Dagoth Ur is sure, he treats you as one because of the prophecy, but in the very second dialogue he asks you if you truly are, meaning he doesn't know

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u/mrgoobster 6h ago

By the time you get to Dagoth Ur, it doesn't really matter if you are or not. You've (probably) been acting like you are the Nerevarine, and that's what matters.

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u/BullTerrierTerror 6h ago

You MAY be the Nerevarine - that is made clear through the course of completing the Seven Trials. You even learn about the False Incarnates, people who competed none or some of the trials.

It’s a clever bit of writing.

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u/Squrton_Cummings 6h ago

"Am I actually the Nerevarine?"

"Maybe, maybe not, maybe go fuck yourself. S'wit."

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u/Benjamin_Starscape 8h ago

Morrowind is not like that. you are indoril nerevar reborn, the game literally starts with the daedric prince of fate and prophecy telling you that she chose you and will watch over you.

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u/SuperBackup9000 7h ago

You should probably read the parent comment. Morrowind is absolutely like that, because despite being the chosen one (if you allow yourself to be), no one really cares. Even the ones who do care still don’t even know if they should be caring

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u/Benjamin_Starscape 7h ago

people do care. it's why they start to manhunt you. why the emperor sent you. etc. the plot happens because you are the nerevarine.

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u/BullTerrierTerror 5h ago

No.

Azura has spoken to all the Failed Incarnates. She even guides their souls to the Cavern of the Incarnate. One of the Failed Incarnates mentions visions by Azura and even survived the Blight.

The Main Character was just the latest and only successful attempt and fulfilling the Nerevarine prophecy. IF the Main Character went that route.

There is always also alternate way of complete Main Quest which completely ignores the Nerevarine quest line. You just straight up kill a god, take his tools, then kill another god.

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Cavern_of_the_Incarnate

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Failed_Incarnates

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u/Benjamin_Starscape 5h ago

Azura has spoken to all the Failed Incarnates. 

no she didn't. in fact the only "failed incarnate" to even mention azura is peakstar, the same one that claims she survived the blight (what that even means, because she still died so who knows if the blight actually developed enough to kill/affect her).

further every single one of the "failed incarnates" fail to meet the prophecy in full, as they're all born in morrowind/vvardenfell, meaning they are not outlanders (which the prophecy states is a requirement). so none of them could have been nerevarine.

in morrowind, you, the player, are the nerevarine. you, the player, are indoril nerevar reborn. you, the player, are the only incarnate, there were no other incarnates.

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u/xueloz 5h ago

False. It is left purposefully ambiguous whether the PC is the Nerevarine or not.

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u/Benjamin_Starscape 4h ago

it is not.

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u/BullTerrierTerror 1h ago

When Dagoth asks you, you can respond:

Yes, I am moon and star returned

I am not even so sure myself if I am Nerevar

I am an imperial agent, and not Nerevar.

The point is, your fate isn’t predetermined.

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u/avlapteff 4h ago edited 2h ago

There is no one true version of Nerevarine prophecy. Tribes and wise women had access to different parts of it. Some were fully lost even. Failed incarnates either had no clue about some aspects of the prophecy or chose to ignore them as unreliable. Who's to say which are true and which are not?

Not to mention that our character also doesn't fulfill an important mission attributed to Nerevarine by Ashlanders: banish the outlanders from Morrowind. It's not in the prophecies Nibani Mesa teaches you but it's part of the prophecy overall.

So in the end it's all about convincing right people/gods/universe that you are indeed Nerevarine enough. Azura is not some objective force outside the mystery, she's an active participant with an agenda like Vivec or the emperor. She recruits you just like Caius does.

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u/Benjamin_Starscape 4h ago

the banishing of outlanders was made up by the ashlanders, it isn't a part of the original prophecy.

azura is literally the manifestation of fate and prophecy

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u/BullTerrierTerror 1h ago

She’s also a master manipulator and holds a grudge against the Tribunal. She’s extremely jealous, vein, and vengeful.

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u/Quietage30 8h ago

I think the other Fallout games did it better in my opinion. You were not the chosen one, but you sure felt like you were. That was so powerful. Like in Fallout 3, in reality you're just a nobody. But the writing was done in such a way that, you feel the stakes of your actions. You understand the importance of the story and the path that you're on. They lost this completely in Fallout 4. There was no consequence, no meaning, basically no importance whatsoever. Just a big pointless world, you can help some people or piss them off, but at the end of the day it didn't really matter either way.

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u/-Caesar 5h ago

Or Morrowind where it's not entirely clear whether or not you are the chosen one or not.

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u/BicFleetwood 4h ago

Ah yes, the "being the chosen one fuckin' sucks" approach.

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u/Fredasa 4h ago

I'm actually totally fine with RPGs where you're the chosen one. That one factor doesn't dictate whether the game is worth a damn, and designing an RPG that does things differently wouldn't guarantee that game is any good.

This is a good example of what I call the Fallout conundrum. Yeah, maybe the formula is old on paper, but when you haven't had a good example of such a game in, like, over a decade, does it matter? Gimme that old formula because it freakin' works and I'm tired of waiting.

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u/Numerous-Band5856 4h ago

Or make an interesting game where the stakes aren't literally everything.

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u/Potential_Ease9346 3h ago

Dark Souls has my favorite 'chosen one' story. The prophecy is basically a trick to get legions of disposable lackeys to throw themselves into certain death to achieve it, and whoever the 'chosen one' is, is just whichever one of them ends up actually succeeding

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u/meditonsin 7h ago

Pretty much all of the Fallout protagonists are just randos who got dragged into high stakes situations way above their paygrade who stepped up to the task.

The Fallout 1 protag is a randomly chosen vault dweller sent out to fetch a spare part.

The Fallout 3 protag is the kid of a notable person, who didn't ask to get dragged into daddy's bullshit (This may be kinda sorta the only exception).

The Fallout NV protag is just a random courier who was unlucky for carrying the McGuffin instead of one of the decoys.

The Fallout 4 protag is a random pre-war veteran or his wife who got their family destroyed by the war and the institute.