r/gaming • u/Asianboiforwhitedad • 10h ago

Kingdom Come Deliverance studio co-founder says a lot of RPGs are 'still games for teenagers,' and that he's 'tired of all the RPGs where you are this chosen one'

https://www.pcgamer.com/games/rpg/kingdom-come-deliverance-studio-co-founder-says-a-lot-of-rpgs-are-still-games-for-teenagers-and-that-hes-tired-of-all-the-rpgs-where-you-are-this-chosen-one/
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u/slip_and_fall_school 9h ago

In a way, he's not wrong.

However, even in games like KCD 1&2 where it is explicitly and repeatedly made clear that you're a nothing and nobody you still get to a point where Henry is a terminator.

Not really sure how to balance the "just a regular guy" ethos and the wish fulfillment and player agency that most gamers desire, or at least I haven't found a game that hits the sweet spot.

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u/damhow 9h ago

Who wants to play an adventure RPG where you don’t become an impactful person? You can’t be regular and highly impactful, it’s a bit of an oxymoron.

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u/Desertcow 9h ago

Tbf one of the most praised RPGs of the last decade is about an alcoholic cop in a backwater city solving one minor murder case

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u/Zenspy-Real 8h ago

Not exactly minor since that one murder was about to trigger the death of the whole town, if Harry wasn't there then it would have been a massacre.

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u/Taliesin_ 4h ago

Big spoiler from Sacred & Terrible Air, the novel that takes place ~20 years after the events of Disco Elysium, you have been warned: Revachol has a nuclear bomb dropped on it, and the rest of the world is rapidly consumed by an accelerating Pale amidst a bloody global war.

So yeah, ultimately, Harry's case is a blip on the radar. And it doesn't need to be more than that to be incredibly interesting all the same.

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u/OkkRespect 9h ago

that’s a pretty good counterexample. Disco Elysium shows you can be a complete mess of a person and still have a meaningful impact without becoming some unstoppable hero.

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u/EarthRester 8h ago

I'm a Hobo-Cop, and I'm here to start Communism! Now give me a bite of that sandwich!

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u/Pipe_Memes 8h ago

Now watch me shoot a ten year old dead for mouthing off to me and end the game in the first 30 minutes.

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u/delahunt 7h ago

"Watch me die because I'm an unfit fuck and I tried too hard to get my tie in the first 5 minutes."

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u/PsychedelicPill 7h ago

Happened to my first try

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u/TallBoy24 4h ago

Fuck Cuno that foul mouthed cunt lmfao , although it was cathartic to get him to right his ways and make him realize his dad is an alcoholic drug addicted chud

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u/TheVog 5h ago

I want to say she had a weapon in my playthrough, but maybe I was blinded by rage

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u/MonaganX 7h ago

A complete mess of a person that's strongly implied to have genuinely paranormal abilities though.

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u/DrTornado 5h ago

Strongly implied by the voices in his head*

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u/TheVog 5h ago

And while being an incredible fuck-up! There are so so many scenes where this plays out. We're not talking fuck-ups like Cloud saying something awkward in FF7 here, we're talking about shooting a child in a vacant lot.

DE is one of the wildest and greatest games of all time.

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u/raznov1 6h ago

Sure, but how many disco elysiums do we need?

Its a game, and narrative style, thats certainly not for wveryone. At least, it wasnt for me.

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u/ShinyGrezz 8h ago

I haven’t played it, I’ll say that upfront, but I’m sure that the MC of Disco Elysium is still important within the boundaries of the plot’s scope.

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u/chipmunksocute 8h ago

Yeah in the sense he's trying to stop a gang war massacre but his actions have no larger world ramifications like solving a major conflict, saving the day, whatever.  You're just a fucked up washed out cop who used to be good trying to solve a murder in the slums.  You're still just a cop when all's said and done

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u/Ktulusanders 8h ago

This isn't necessarily true depending on how you choose to resolve the dispute between the union and the board

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u/Desertcow 3h ago

He stiffles a minor gang war between a mob and 3 mercenaries but a lot of the game is focused on the city's political future, and ultimately the MC just minorly dampens tensions in the city

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u/NibblyPig 4h ago

Interestingly I played about 30 mins of this game and thought, christ my character should just kill himself, why would I want to play a game where I'm an absolute chronic fucked up miserable loser. Then I uninstalled it.

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u/Teantis 3h ago

Because there are wider stories that are interesting than power fantasies. And cRPGs can be a story telling platform beyond with a wider set of stories than just a stats go up and I kill stuff better type of story

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u/Desertcow 3h ago

Completely fair, the first hour of the game is cringing at how far of a hole Raphael dug for himself. It's one of the best games about climbing back out of rock bottom and finding meaning though

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u/Aggressive-Map-2204 7h ago

Never heard of it.

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u/Jerm0510 5h ago

It's one of the greatest narrative experiences I've had in gaming, with only the original Mass Effect trilogy rivalling my personal top spot. If non-combat, dialog tree-driven storytelling RPGs appeal to you, I absolutely recommend it.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/632470/Disco_Elysium__The_Final_Cut/

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u/Few_Confusion_1871 3h ago

I'd rather just watch it as a film or tv show, can we keep games as games?

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u/XiahouMao 3h ago

You can't really watch it as a film/TV show when there's so much agency as the player to make choices and alter how things resolve.

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u/MountScottRumpot 3h ago

It would not work at all as a show. Gaming is inherent to its storytelling.

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u/Sethicles2 4h ago

I think this example is a bit disingenuous. Disco Elysium is a visual novel, not a playable RPG. And solving that one murder is pretty damn important.

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u/Teantis 3h ago

What makes you think it's not an rpg.

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u/No_Helicopter1378 3h ago

I would personally define it along the lines of "an interactable visual novel with RPG elements."

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u/Sethicles2 2h ago

It's a different kind of RPG; it's one you read, not really one you play.

There's a big difference between this game and RPG's that you directly control your character, level up, improve skills and abilities, acquire weapons and armor, etc. In those types of RPG's, it's a lot harder for the narrative to disregard you as unimportant or "just some guy".

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u/DaisyCutter312 8h ago

Isn't that exactly why KCD2 is?

Henry impacts Henry-level things, but regardless of what you do, Sigismund is still going to take the throne and history marches on.

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u/EriktheRed 6h ago

Well, except for that one secret ending…

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u/Crash_Test_Dummy66 9h ago

I think an RPG where you can be impactful in smaller capacities while ultimately being only one mostly insignificant piece in a much broader world is very compelling.

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u/nunuandknuckles 9h ago

isnt this essentially what Stardew Valley and some other farming sims with RPG elements accomplish?

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u/-SaC 8h ago

"Welcome to Stardew Valley! Now, as well as fixing up this entire farm on your own despite having zero farming experience (we're not going to help you, sorry), we'd also like you to sort ot the community centre on your own.

Oh, and the library/museum guy said to mention he wants you to single-handedly recover all of the books that've gone missing, as well as entirely building the museum collection of minerals and fossils. You should get on that.

If you need anything... well, don't bother asking any of us. We'll only be your friend if you give us presents constantly. You might get a recipe or something in return if you give us enough of them, but nobody will bother coming round to see how you're doing or if you need any help. Once you've done all your own stuff, you can pay for new houses for people and improving the community on your own. Bye now!

PS: find my undies for me, since I can't be bothered to check the bedroom floor of the woman I'm shagging but don't want anyone to know I'm shagging."

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u/Auctoritate 6h ago

The original comment mentioned being important in small capacities and being one insignificant piece of a much broader world.

Your examples for "Look at how important you are in Stardew though" includes such things as 'Fixing up a single farm you inherited,' and 'Restocking the local library,' which I think proves the concept pretty firmly.

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u/CoconutNL 8h ago edited 8h ago

Yeah you need stuff to do in a game. I think youre really reaching here. This isnt "chosen one", youre just the guy who goes into the mines, or the guy who farms, the guy who explores a bit, the guy who is relatively new so the mayor can ask his embarrassing request before rumours spread. The museum guy asks the guy who digs up soil to bring him stuff digged up from the soil, including the lost books. He isnt ordering you to get everything. He's joking that maybe one day the museum will be full again. Then you can actually do that, because games have limits and you can find every item.

They arent asking the farmer to fix the internet cables or georges tv or whatever, because that isnt what the farmer does. The requests you get relate to the things you already do in your day to day life. Thats how games work, how collecting games work.

Nothing is really significant to the grand world. You just help around the village, and you make sure the supermarket chain goes away (or you side with the supermarket). Youre really reaching

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u/-SaC 8h ago

I'd agree if a big chunk of the game wasn't locked behind doing that stuff, from things that help you around the farm in production etc to entire new areas.

If you don't do the community centre, it doesn't get done. If you don't do it, you don't get to unlock Ginger Island, which is a nice big bit of the game now. But sure, you -can- just do your own farm and ignore everything else.

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u/CoconutNL 8h ago

Yeah you need to do stuff to progress. And again, doing the community center is a very small scale change to the local area. Doing ginger island is also very local, you basically only help 2 people there with things they could figure out themselves easily. Youre reaching

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u/-SaC 7h ago

There's an entire new farm on there. Someone who was interesting in the making-a-farm part of the game might want to try the new farm and the ton of new crops it can produce, but it's locked away from them until the community centre is completed. Nobody else in the community is going to do that part of it for you, it's entirely down to you. Nothing happens without you kicking it off and then completing it by yourself.

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u/CoconutNL 7h ago

The farm doesnt really do anything that your own farm already does, except the lack of seasons. Reminder that ginger island was also added in 1.5, we are currently on 1.6. There were multiple years of the games existence where your argument didnt even exist. Was the game more to your specifications then? Or do you realise that youre grasping at straws?

And again, nothing of these things arent local. Theyre all small, nothing is grand scale, and outside of the town or ginger island you dont change anything. You dont even change the desert, you just visit.

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u/-SaC 7h ago

The farm doesnt really do anything that your own farm already does, except the lack of seasons.

Plus a bunch of new interesting crops, natch.

 

There were multiple years of the games existence where your argument didnt even exist. Was the game more to your specifications then? Or do you realise that youre grasping at straws?

It's almost as if I chose one example. I'm sorry you were unable to comprehend that. You could have read into the bus being locked away until you do chunks of the community centre, or the greenhouse similarly so you're unable to 'complete' your farm. All small things with small things behind them, but things that are nice to have and enjoy even if you just want to go and buy new crops from the desert or grow in winter in the greenhouse. My point was, and has been, that nothing happens without you doing it. You're the only reason anything gets done. Nobody else will go and do it all if you don't, and that's fine - you are, after all, merely one person in the valley, albeit the only one who does anything at all for the community. Which is the point. You're the one the place revolves around, at least if anyone wants anything done. But it can drift by in statis indefinitely no worries, I suppose.

Bored of trying to teach the pigeon to play chess now; please feel free to do with the board what you may.

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u/oath2order 7h ago

Oh, and the library/museum guy said to mention he wants you to single-handedly recover all of the books that've gone missing

No, he doesn't. He doesn't address the books at all.

as well as entirely building the museum collection of minerals and fossils. You should get on that.

"Hey, if you find any artifacts or minerals out there... would you let me know?"

He words it as completely optional.

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u/dalledeverre 8h ago

This is what Dragon Age 2 did. If the player character wasn't there at all, everything would have gone down in pretty much the same way. You make a name for yourself, impact individual lives, and participate in the big world-changing events, but ultimately all of it is beyond your capacity to control, all you can do is choose where you want to stand and who stands with you in the midst of it.

It was poorly recieved at the time it dropped because it was rushed, and there are things about it that could have been done better, but the central idea that some major events are already in motion no matter what we do as the player, that was fun. Everything we did still felt impactful on the interpersonal level, just not the macro one, so it was still satisfying without being deifying.

It made me think that I'd love an RPG where we're recruited to the party of the chosen one, with personal quests, love interests, and character growth, but we're just another companion who can die and the hero's story goes on without us.

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u/Terramagi 8h ago

It made me think that I'd love an RPG where we're recruited to the party of the chosen one, with personal quests, love interests, and character growth, but we're just another companion who can die and the hero's story goes on without us.

That's just FF10.

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u/Lord_Bolt-On 8h ago

It's why I think DA2 is the best of the franchise. The character and scenario writing is so unbelievably strong that it removes most of the negatives for me.

You don't always influence the world when you make a decision, but you always influence your party members. And you accidentally become important to this city, all because you make a few choices that become very impactful in hindsight. I find that so much more interesting than "this person who happens to be something like a hero is now the person we look to in order to save the world!"

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u/goonbandito 6h ago

I agree, DA2 is me favourite of the trilogy for those reasons too (well, that and also because sarcastic fem-Hawke is just the best).

I think a lot of people couldn't look past the change in combat style from the first game combined with the constant recycled level layouts. Which is a shame, because the game has really strong writing.

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u/GT-Alex74 5h ago

Absolutely. Hawke's story is a tragedy where they get to constantly see everything around them break apart.

My Hawke especially got heartbroken and felt like she failed twice. She was kinda flirting with both Isabella and Anders, but started messing around with Isabella, until she stole the Qunari book. Hawke didn't cast her away in my run, but a boundary was broken, so a relationship was off. So Hawke ended up going further with Anders and invested herself deeply in him... only for him to fuck up tenfolds more. The only thing she could do there was to cast him away. So in my canon, all major events feel like personal failures to her, and even Corypheus feels like her own responsibility.

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u/awc130 9h ago

Kinda the beauty of Warhammer 40k. You can destroy vast armies, save planets. But it is miniscule in the grand scheme.

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u/lew_rong 8h ago

And then along come the Grey Knights and execute you because in the course of saving that planet you saw things no mortal should witness without a heaping dose of Big E's personal gene seed.

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u/robsteezy 9h ago

Sorry but that just sounds so boringly silly.

“Oh my god! The world is about to be destroyed by this demon king! Quick! Are you the chosen one here to use this bad ass ancient weapon of the gods to battle him for the fate of mankind?!”

“Umm no. I’m actually the town librarian. I’m not here to fight the villain. I’m here to make sure that the town library books are returned on time. I’ll make sure the heroes’ favorite novels are always in stock.”

“Welcome to Black Flag! Ready to become the world’s greatest assassin and captain of the high seas?!

Umm no I’m just here to help him. I’m actually a seasonal worker here to row oar #6 in the back left of the boat.”

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u/Sciros 8h ago

Oar #6 is a pretty sweet gig where do I buy this game

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u/MrFeles 8h ago

"Are you here to carry the ring to Mordor and fuck up the Sour one?"

"Nah I'm just the gardener and the actual fucking hardass of the story, I carry the guy you're after."

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u/BleydXVI 3h ago

Hey, Sam was chosen. Chosen by Gandalf to accompany Frodo rather than turn Sam into something unnatural.

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u/HH_Hobbies 8h ago

This is just a gross over simplification of what they're saying

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u/robsteezy 8h ago

Yes sir I’m being sarcastic bc (1) “RPG” has become an oversaturated catch all to mean almost mean anything that isn’t a niche or specific genre and (2) I can’t think of any clear cut examples where the character is (as they put) “mostly insignificant” yet they’re not chosen in some way shape or form.

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u/MaimedJester 8h ago

Well you can have a personal quest.  Like finding a legendary treasure or getting revenge on a single bad guy, not the legendary demon king starting the apocalypse. Like a game where you just avenge your father,  kinda like what Shenmue promised? I didn't play 3, but he was just dealing with local underworld gangs, it might have gone magical/ had the potential but eh i liked Shenmue 2 just starting off with Hong Kong Street thieves just stealing your backpack because you're an obvious tourist/ non local Japanese kid to take advantage of. 

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u/MostExperts 5h ago

The issue is with the premise - I've defeated so many demon kings now that it's just not that compelling tbh.

Detroit: Becoming Human is a good example of multiple protagonists whose driving motivation is "survive this dystopian world" which can range from "escape abuse and flee to Canada" to "be the best robocop ever made".

Never are the stakes made out to be "omg the whole world is going to explode if you don't kill the demon lord by friday (unless you want to spend 3 months playing cards in a tavern in which case kill the demon right after please)".

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u/Evilmudbug 3h ago

Yeah you can fuck up and get everyone killed and i think the people in charge just reconsider how autonomous the robots should be or something.

Been a while so it might be slightly different, but society isn't like irreparably changed for the worse or anything

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u/ptoki 21m ago

I think this thread may be actually a bit of a sign of the times.

In the past our lives were boring and gray. We all wanted to be special. Heroes, firefighters, space explorers and so on. And we got it from games.

Now people started to question this because this extravagant life IN A GAME became boring/mundane and gray.

We need a different level to this. Or very different approach.

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u/nonasiandoctor 8h ago

I mean I think there was a recent game that was just putting books back

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u/robsteezy 8h ago

And there’s nothing wrong with that lol. I myself love cozy games. But even then, you’re still typically “the chosen one”. The chosen one doesn’t always have to be some god like power to be chosen.

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u/Crash_Test_Dummy66 6h ago

You're telling me there are no other interesting stories to experience in the world of the Lord of the rings trilogy besides the main characters?

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u/NibblyPig 4h ago

If you wanna play a different game than a traditional RPG, something like Goblin Cleanup, or like Sim Hobbiton, make sure the harvest comes in and second breakfast is in the oven

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u/Enlightened_Gardener 5h ago

The silly thing is, I play games like Horizon Zero Dawn for the scenery. I’d be quite happy to play a game in which I had to gather herbs and build a little hut in the woods, maybe bake cakes for the May Day dance. I don’t think it would sell terribly well though….

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u/Einfinet 9h ago

This is sorta how characters treat you in Kingdom Come, though I’d say you actually accomplish really significant stuff. People just overlook it or don’t care bc you aren’t true nobility

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u/Denbt_Nationale 8h ago

That's literally KCD though

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u/Seanspeed 7h ago

You need a REALLY compelling overarching narrative to pull this off. And that's just not something video game writers are great at.

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u/Fellhuhn 8h ago

Besides what the others wrote it is kinda easy: You don't save the kingdom from the enemy armies - you save your family from that one rogue group of soldiers while you watch the armies duke it out. You don't affect the outcome of the war but you save your family. Emotionally a big win. But the world itself doesn't give a fuck. And that's okay.

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u/A_Vinegar_Taster 7h ago

Isn't it more impactful if you rise and succeed on your own merits as opposed to some arbitrary selection process that has nothing to do with you or your dedication?

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u/Aggravating-Dot132 9h ago

Easy. You just downplay the stakes. Yes, you eventually defeat the badguys, but if it will be a struggle and you go through lots of pain, it shows that you got lucky/tryharded. Take Jedi series. Cal Kestis isn't the chosen one, lots of strong sith or Jedi can defeat him. And you aren't saving the universe, you barely save your friends (some of them).

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u/Gastroid 9h ago

Well, in KCD2, the stakes feel incredible. Thwarting King Sigismund's plans? Surviving a drawn out castle siege? Helping decide the fates of so many people you've come to respect?

Even though a lot of the historical events in the game were embellished or happened out of chronical order, realistically all those amazing things experienced are footnotes or small Wikipedia articles at best compared to the long and prosperous life Sigismund had, and everything Zizka is known for happened years later.

I'd say those are pretty good stakes. They feel personal and huge to an individual like Henry, even though nothing that happened is even on bar trivia level.

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u/Aggravating-Dot132 9h ago

Yes, but you are under Zuzka's squad in the second game, and in the first one you are just trying to help your "step father". And in the end, all you do is helping Hans.

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u/DigiornoDLC 5h ago

Parents are highly impactful to their children. A single soldier can be highly impactful to their squad. It’s only an oxymoron if you’re having an impact on too great a subject.

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u/Enlightened_Gardener 5h ago

Still Walks The Deep was a good one for this. He’s just a rigger on an oil rig.

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u/KakitaMike 5h ago

I did like in Final Fantasy Tactics where it’s like, by the way, nobody ever finds out you did all this. Someone else takes credit.

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u/Qubeye 4h ago

There are social RPGs. Mostly people use them to simulate porn.

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u/HammerofBonking 4h ago

No one is saying you can't be impactful. Instead of being "Chosen by fate and/or the gods", you just... become the person who rises to the occasion. You develop the skills to be the best. You make your impact through your own agency.

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u/Teantis 3h ago

You can tell other types of stories with games. Look at disco Elysium, you're barely impactful to the world. It's a story about a person at its core.

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u/Valtros 3h ago

I think there is a difference between being an impactful person and being the preordained lynchpin of the entire battle between all good and evil. Context is very important in this case because a story needs to limit itself to relevant characters and plot lines to maintain pace and focus. Without considering the scale of the story, someone could easily confuse a highly influential character with a chosen one archetype.

"Chosen One" vs "Hero" is a comparison with a lot of space in between. You can play a role in a grander narrative where lots of stuff would have gone wrong if you hadn't shown up to save the day, while not being the central figure of the entire conflict. Most video games are obliged to make the player influential, that doesn't automatically make them "The One".

People have referenced Lord of the Rings in the conversation here and I also want to point out that many of the important characters in that story are heroes even though not one of them is the sole person to save the day. Sam wasn't the ring bearer, but Frodo wouldn't have gotten very far without Sam. He's an important character even if he's not the most important one in the *entire* story, the kind of character I would enjoy playing in a video game. Sam helped save the day and he's one of the many characters to do so. I don't personally consider Frodo to be a "chosen one" character either, for the record.

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u/ptoki 24m ago

I think it is the point.

How to make a game where you arent the main hero/center of the universe, make it interesting and make sense.

It is either impossible or we did not find it yet.

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u/Xarxyc 9h ago

Who wants to play an adventure RPG where you don’t become an impactful person? 

One of the reasons WoW Classic is popular - player character's isn't a chosen one. It's mostly low scale adventures. At the end PC get some recognition, but other than that it's not a chosen troupe.

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u/ComradeCoipo 6h ago

And even then, the problem people mostly “complain” isn’t that you become an impactful person, it’s the “chosen one” trope. It is fun, but at times I just want to be a regular dude that manages to do cool stuff through effort/skill, not because “it’s written in the stars” or smth

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u/Mazon_Del 9h ago

The only way I've ever come up with myself is that you aren't the impactful person DIRECTLY, you're someone off to the side that's why the actual impactful person succeeds. This is impactful in its own way, but it's the difference between being say, the tip of the spear hero Captain-America-ing their way through enemies, and being someone piecing together disparate bits of intelligence in order to point the hero in the right direction.

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u/MyUsernameIsAwful 9h ago

I want to impact things, I just don’t want people worshipping me for it. Undersell my part among the populace, I know what I did.

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u/plug-and-pause 8h ago

Agreed, and the OP was not even about impact level, it was about (narrative) agency.