r/vegan • u/constantdaydream44 • 16h ago
Discussion What's your opinion on capital punishment? Can you be vegan and pro death penalty?
Reading the news of the botched execution in Tennessee this past week has me questioning my moral consistency. I was pro death penalty at first, but I'm doing research and I'm realizing how inhumane and unethical these executions are and how they don't actually save the tax payers money in the long run because it's so expensive to execute an inmate. Is it morally consistent to be pro death penality and be vegan? I'm pro choice, if that changes anything. I feel like sometimes I think life is sacred, other times not. Thanks for reading this and your input.
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u/portugueseninja 16h ago
For me they are different things. Veganism is about animals. I'm not against the death penalty because I'm vegan. I'm against the death penalty because I think it's a barbaric practice that has no place in modern society.
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u/Adventurous_Drama291 16h ago
Humans are animals 😭
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u/Comfortable_Seat1444 16h ago
Exactly, and to the original comment for some more info on this idea is that's why some vegans go a step further than just abstaining from animal products, but also ensuring that their products were ethically made to the best of their abilities (i.g. Fair Trade products, without slave labor, which is super hard to find heart-breakingly). While I don't make sure every product is Fair Trade approved, generally I avoid things with cashews and palm oil when I can since I am aware that those industries heavily rely on slave and child labor.
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u/MrBR2120 vegan sXe 16h ago
exactly. i hate how people just stand by and totally dismiss the outright commodification of the human animal. it’s one of my biggest problems with people that box themselves in with the mainstream definition of veganism.
why would veganism end where i begin? the government gave me a product number to be collected on when i was born. it’s so vulgar and disgusting. i’m a being with dignity not some thing to be taxed until death.
human liberation and animal liberation are inextricably connected. one can literally not exist without the other.
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u/nope-nik-tesla 14h ago
The Social Security system dramatically reduced elderly poverty by guaranteeing all workers a retirement benefit. I think it is the opposite of dehumanizing. Giving retirees a pension is not undignified.
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u/MrBR2120 vegan sXe 13h ago edited 12h ago
sure but you’re conflating that with the fact that ~35% of the product of my labor is withheld with force, and is spent on god knows what like blowing up civilians across the world with drones and other indiscriminate methods of destruction, or squandered entirely by bloated govt programs with too much red tape and acting like the very niche special case of it helping the elderly sometimes (which does it even? most of the elderly on social security alone often face issues of never ending rises in property tax etc) helping the elderly justifies the entirety of political authority.
do i think the world needs more charity and looking out for one another? of course. but if a group of people can withhold the product of your labor through force then you are a slave. it’s quite literally that simple.
if all humans are equal then none have the authority to command how others may peacefully live and the others do not have a moral duty to obey.
also the federal government knowingly & intentionally inflates the fiat currency. the dollar taken from me by force wont even be a whole dollar when i go to take it back out one day. the whole thing is bullshit and they dangle this carrot of “see look at the 180 bucks we gave this old lady and don’t you love this road we built…”. those are just tools to control you with.
i don’t think the solution to a lack of societal togetherness is slavery. and if you point to that to justify but dont acknowledge the obvious wrongdoings of the state then it just obtuse to the point where legitimate discourse is kind of impossible. in my life alone ive seen over 1 million iraqis killed over the lies of the government that withholds my labor through force. how much did they spend doing that as opposed to helping the people supposedly in their charge?
don’t let them fool you with these things. sure helping the elderly is nice in a vacuum but i don’t think the government does it out of a purely altruistic endeavor. otherwise so much more would be getting done. it’s more like a “see i really do love you don’t worry about all that i took through your life and what i did with it… i’ll be there for you for the last ten years of your life with 480 bucks a month…” it’s classic abuser behavior lol.
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u/nope-nik-tesla 13h ago
Equating taxes to literal slavery is insane
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u/MrBR2120 vegan sXe 13h ago edited 12h ago
explain how it isn’t. if you and i were stranded on an island and i said you have to give me 35% of everything you forage/create or else force and punitive action will be taken against you, how would you not be my slave? i mean seriously i’m all ears lol.
it’s the exact same in principle. how is withholding the product of someone’s labor by force not slavery?
is it chattel slavery with whips? of course not but we recognize degrees in moral transgressions ALL the time: degrees of murder, white lies, theft, etc.
would i take this over brutal chattel slavery? of course. did those slaves have it worse than me? objectively yes.
but just because master lets you live in the big house doesn’t mean you aren’t a slave still bro. would you say the same thing to the house slaves? “look man comparing cooking dinner and folding sheets to being in the field is crazy bro…”.
again, think & reason from principles first. like i said in my original comment, how can we possibly fix a problem without diagnosing and acknowledging its causal factors?
slavery can vary by degree, no one is denying that, but it’s always wrong in principle.
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u/nope-nik-tesla 12h ago
It is not the same in principle. Slavery is defined as being owned as property by somebody else and being forced into labor. Paying some amount of taxes on your income does not mean you yourself are property that can be bought and sold by other people or that you are being forced into labor that you do not agree to do.
This rhetorical paradigm does not even hold up in and of itself. If paying taxes means we are slaves, then who are the slaveowners? Everybody pays taxes. Does this mean we are all simultaneously slaves and slaveowners? That doesn't make any sense.
It's a nonsensical argument that is completely divorced from material reality
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u/MrBR2120 vegan sXe 12h ago edited 6h ago
>does it mean we are all slaves
yes. there’s literally 8 billion slaves on this planet under the thumb of government authority.
i’m not “paying some taxes on my income”. they withhold it through force and coercion and use it for whatever they see fit. i have no choice. if i don’t pay, something punitive will happen to me. THATS SLAVERY.
do you think slavery must be at the end of a whip to be slavery?
>slavery is being defined as being owned as property by somebody else
reach in your wallet and pull out your ID and social security card. you can see your own product number bro. you carry it around in your pocket at all times.
sure you’re “free” to not work but if you create anything in this nation and sell it to someone else tge government makes a claim to a portion of the proceeds. you can not render unto caesar but again punitive action can be leveed against you if you fail to pay up.
you can’t even own a piece of land in this country. you must pay property tax until you die. if you don’t, the government revokes your lease and kicks you off THEIR property they were oh so kind to let you use for a fee.
i know it’s a tough spell to break bro but the masters “whip” can be debt slavery, taxation, goods and services ultimately used to abusively justify authority etc.
as consciousness grows the master just becomes more nebulous. why is a divine right of a single king to dominate us totally obviously immoral but when you diffuse that to ~600 people in a senate & house of representatives is just fine now?
political authority is the biggest religion on the planet. after that i’d say it’s money AND THEN comes everything that people normally think of when they hear religion, like abrahamic monotheist religions etc.
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u/nope-nik-tesla 12h ago
A few books I would recommend reading that answer the question for why democracy is justified while the divine right of kings is not are The Second Treatise of Government by John Locke, The Social Contract by Jean-Jacques Rousseau, and A Theory of Justice by John Rawls.
The assertion that every single person living on this planet is a "slave" is an absurd claim that does not warrant any serious response.
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u/Fallen_lord10 16h ago
So yes death penalty o nah?
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u/MrBR2120 vegan sXe 16h ago edited 16h ago
big nah.
political authority treats the human animal as a commodity for human use. it’s wholly antithetical to veganism.
i can’t just choose to kill someone else… why then would i magically gain that right by simply calling myself the state? can i withhold the product of your labor? why then do i gain that right by calling myself the state and the withholding a tax? so on and so forth…
until people realize this very simple mathematical truth about the state/authority i think the many will be doomed to be ruled by the few. a truly collaborative actually free world can’t exist until this lie is exposed and clicks in the average persons mind.
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u/PinkPonySteph 13h ago
So i make TikToks and I kind of want to do one on the death penalty now! Thank you for the inspiration :)
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u/portugueseninja 16h ago
Sure, biologically speaking humans are animals, but culturally and societally speaking we have different attitudes to humans and non-human animals, so I think when it comes to a matter of how we act in terms of culture and society we do have to think of them differently. But that doesn't mean I respect the life of one more than the other. For me, a sentient life is a sentient life - I respect the lives of sentient humans and I also respect the lives of sentient non-human animals.
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u/tombrady011235 11h ago
My only argument would be a lot of crimes that get the death penalty are intentional in their maliciousness, whereas animals don’t have that moral choice and are the victims of violence
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u/Adventurous_Drama291 8h ago
The problem with this line of argument is that the legal system is flawed, and never has a 0% error rate. If you imprison somebody on an error, you can at least set them free later and compensate them with money. If you kill somebody on an error, well, we don't exactly have working necromancy yet.
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u/ParsnipNo1227 6h ago
Donald Watson who was a pacifist who believed in non-violence as universally to all living creatures. His ethical framework left no room for taking a life through warfare capital punishment or the slaughter of animals. He was the one who started the modern vegan movement.
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u/tombrady011235 11h ago
Yea I don’t see how they’re equivalent. Animals haven’t done anything to earn the violence against them except exist
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u/Substantial_Law_5239 15h ago
If you take a life, you forfeit yours. Fundamental.
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u/MrBR2120 vegan sXe 11h ago
if dignity is truly inalienable then that means it can’t be legitimately waived or surrendered though, that’s the actual fundamental truth.
and yes i realize this means even self defense is morally dubious. if someone broke in my home i’d probably shoot them but it would be a moral concession under duress, not some triumph of justice like everyone makes it out to be. id lament that i had to destroy another being.
and even then that’s entirely different from something like the death penalty that happens far removed from any imminent threat and is deliberated on.
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u/devilkin vegan 15+ years 15h ago
While I disagree with the sentiment, I can understand some people that think this way. HOWEVER, there is a huge issue to the death penalty.
- We can rarely be completely certain that a person did it - there have been so many instances of someone receiving the death penalty, despite later evidence exonerating them.
- There are extenuating circumstances to this - what is you were defending your home, or you had a psychotic break that was not your fault? Or it was an accident?
To just blanket say you support it is pretty ignorant, even within the context of your statement.
Ultimately taking a life for a life doesn't benefit society, and it serves purely as a punitive measure that doesn't effect positive change to the world.
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u/Substantial_Law_5239 13h ago
I'm in favor of the death penalty in principal. And you better be 100% certain. And in a very high % of cases, we are. If we aren't, then no.
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u/devilkin vegan 15+ years 13h ago
What percent makes it an acceptable practice to you? Because one in twenty cases are mistaken. And what about instances of mental health, which are often ignored in these kinds of cases?
It's a bad practice, with no benefit to society.
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u/revmanda 15h ago
I went vegetarian and later vegan bc I am anti violence and wanted to make that a more intentional part of my lifestyle. I was already anti death penalty. We are the only western nation that still has the death penalty.
It’s barbaric. Then again, so is our prison system. It’s the only legal form of slavery in this country. And most prisons are privately-run and profit off the people in their care. The whole system is fucked up and abusive.
I believe in having a system that rehabilitates people. Are there some people who can’t be rehabilitated? Yes. Do they deserve to be treated like monsters? No. Desmond Tutu said that when we think of another human as a monster, we take away their agency and ability to change. Human beings (the vast majority) are capable of change. And when we keep them in conditions that would make anyone crazy and/or violent, we should not be surprised that they act violently. It’s the same as caging animals and then being surprised if they act violently.
We also have to look at the root causes of violence, primarily child abuse and poverty. In the case you’re talking about, the murder she participated in was brutal and horrific. AND she had been subjected to horrific abuse herself. That kind of trauma changes you.
For me, being vegan goes much deeper than animal welfare. It’s an ethical stance that seeks a better way of life for all animals, including humans.
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u/revmanda 15h ago
In addition, DNA evidence and injustice in the system is being revealed more and more, showing that many people who were innocent have been executed.
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u/alienreader_29 15h ago
All of this! Literally all of this! I've read too many cases of people who were tortured in the prison system, only to find out they were completely innocent. I've heard of forced sterilizations and people being assaulted. People with certain backgrounds are more likely to be unjustly biased against. Knowing all of this, I just can't be okay with the death penalty. Not to mention, taking a life will not bring back a life.
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u/LuvIsAllUN33d vegan 12h ago
Many? What are the cases? I've only seen one posthumous exoneration based on DNA and he died of cancer, not execution. To my knowledge there's never been a single posthumous exoneration after execution. Genuinely curious if there are confirmed post-execution exonerations.
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u/revmanda 8h ago
Ok so it looks like they were exonerated before execution. But that’s only since 1973, so I think it’s reasonable to believe we’ve executed innocent people for a long time and even if they didn’t end up executed, they shouldn’t have been on death row (or in prison) in the first place.
https://innocenceproject.org/innocence-and-the-death-penalty/
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u/Swampcardboard vegan 10+ years 16h ago
I don't think this has anything to do with veganism, but in my opinion if you are fine with a legal sentence/punishment being carried out, you also have to be fine with it being carried out to innocent people, since legal systems cannot be perfect. I'm not fine with executing innocent people so I am against the death penalty entirely.
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u/Aurora_Symphony 9h ago
You can use the same reasoning for prisons. There's more to this discussion that's left out.
"I'm not fine with putting innocent people in prisons, so I'm against government-sanctioned incarceration entirely."
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u/RogueToad vegan 3+ years 9h ago edited 9h ago
True, but I think it still makes sense if reframed a little - it's an acceptable compromise that some innocent people will go to jail, but not that some innocent people will die.
Edit: that said, personally I don't think a death sentence is justifiable for anyone. Since there's no chance of rehabilitation, it's only useful for sating a desire for punishment and for deterrence. The former is barbaric, and the latter is questionable in effectiveness. It can also make people ok with doing more crime, if they know they're already going to die for what they've done so far.
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u/Aurora_Symphony 9h ago
That reframing is essentially the baseline position that many uphold, but such position runs into difficulties when applied to other concepts. Those who procreate are happy with constructing a new, innocent being even though such an action attaches a mandatory death sentence for such a life.
If one wanted to build a more morally consistent framework around their own absolute disinterest in highly culpable actions that result in innocent life experiencing death, then I would argue that there are other ontological categories that this position would also apply to.
I personally see incarceration as less rehabilitative and punitive as it is simply a means of reducing rights-violations within society. A person may be born with highly criminalistic tendencies through absolutely no fault of their own, but simply because of how their being is interested in operating in the world they cause suffering unto others and society would seemingly benefit from the perpetrator being removed from that main society.
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u/No_Chart_8584 16h ago
I'm anti-death penalty because the margin of error displayed by the government is inconsistent with my concept of justice, not because I think life is sacred. In an abstract situation where we could be confident in someone's guilt and the crime was serious enough, I don't think I would oppose it. But we don't have that system in place, if such a system even could exist, so I'm against it.
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u/ChemicalRain5513 9h ago
That, and I don't want to pay taxes to a government that kills people (that are not immediate threats).
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u/Individual-Card-1639 5h ago
The margin of error in current times in almost nonexistent today. All the high tech identification, DNA, fingerprints there are truly no room for error. Don’t be fooled by media portrayal bs. The news is severely spun.
Currently sitting in downtown Madrid Spain where the media is spreading hate, violence and total chaos and it’s is 100% the opposite. It’s an occupy sit in camp out. I walked through it people were friendly. Yes just visiting but been here almost a week.
As for the death penalty, I have family and friends that have been victims of violent crimes. Yes some killed, I’m for it. People who commit murder have place in society.
Perfect example is William Suff. Committed murder in Texas did his short sentence for killing his own child did 15 yrs. He was released came to Riverside ca. He committed 23 more murders convicted on 14 of them. Look it up The Riverside serial killer. Zero reason for this guy to be wasting oxygen. Just my two cents
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u/Consistent-Star5745 veganarchist 16h ago
I believe the government has no business killing its citizens. Not to mention the fact that juries don't always get it right, and it's not even an effective deterrent anyway. There's no good reason to support it imo.
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u/DisastrousGeonome 16h ago
I think people saying they're concerned about taxpayer money when speaking about their views on the death penalty is a crutch. If you're going to be upset about taxpayer money maybe look at how much the Pentagon weapons programs keep running over its cost estimates.
I mean the conditions in many prisons are pretty miserable as it is. The food and medical care is atrocious, it's dangerous and corrupt. Very questionable human rights concerns.
The fact is innocent people get sentenced to death. I also think lifelong incarceration is extremely damaging to the psyche and its own form of torture. Some, like school shooters and serial killers, can't be allowed back into society, and there isn't a neat answer for that. The right and wrong here isn't as clean as veganism.
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u/bradbrad247 12h ago
Being concerned with the cost component of the death penalty and other wasteful spending within government are not mutually exclusive. It's a strange criticism that doesn't really hold water logically.
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u/DisastrousGeonome 12h ago
Well, that's your opinion that it's strange. I see more often than not people citing the expense when they have little interest in other forms of goverment spending.
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u/bradbrad247 12h ago
Because some people may use it as such doesn't invalidate the argument, though. Your comment referred to all people who use the argument of cost (which is just ignorant).
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u/DisastrousGeonome 12h ago
Oh ok, I should've specified not every single human uses it in that manner. /s 🙄
I never said it was an invalid argument to have itself either. I said it was used as a crutch.
I think I could have specified "often" instead making it sound universal, BUT that t wasn't my main paint of the comment. I'm talking about the people who invoke taxpayer cost SPECIFICALLY as an objection to the death penalty, while otherwise having little to no concern about any goverment spending.
Pretending my point was "no one cares about the cost" is pretty fucking ignorant of what I actually said.
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u/bradbrad247 12h ago
No need to get so defensive and emotional lol. Nobody claimed your point was that nobody actually cares about the cost.
You made an overreaching and silly statement in a serious conversation about a serious topic. Specificity is important. Of course some people might use it that way, but that's likely far, far fewer people than are using that argument earnestly. Most people care about needless and violent government spending even if they aren't mentioning all forms they disagree with every time they bring it up. It's just silly to state that all people using that argument are using it as a crutch.
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u/DisastrousGeonome 11h ago
Defensive and emotional? You called my criticism strange, which is fine. Then you called my words ignorant. I'm not emotional, I'm making a point with someone who is being downright rude.
You literally keep arguing against a version of my point that I didn't make. AGAIN, I'm specifically talking about people who invoke taxpayer cost as an objection while otherwise showing little or no concern about government spending. THAT'S what I called a crutch. The fact that cost can be a perfectly legitimate argument on its own doesn't contradict that observation.
You're jumping all over me for leaving out the word "often", while you simultaneously claim "most people care about needless and violent government spending", which is a pretty sweeping assumption. Saying that doesn't establish anything about the people I'm talking about.
So yes, I could have qualified the original statement. I've already acknowledged that. But repeatedly widening my statement into something broader, arguing against that expanded version, and then characterizing that expanded version as silly is ridiculous.
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u/Advanced_Dependent35 16h ago
I’m against killing, period. I would say life behind bars for even the absolute worst criminals in society.
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u/constantdaydream44 16h ago
Death almost feels like an easy way out. I would rather see them rot in a jail cell.
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u/BornRelationship8280 16h ago
One is about killing animals the other is about killing people, so it is strange but possible. What I don’t get is how you can be anti- abortion and pro death penalty. This is contradictory in my view. I am against the death penalty.
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u/constantdaydream44 16h ago
I'm seeing that ALOT right now. They say only the unborn are sacred? Your bible says thou shall not kill but they are pro death penalty? Doesnt make much sense to me.
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u/MiraculousAnarchy veganarchist 15h ago
I’m a full prison abolitionist and do feel it’s connected to my veganism
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u/tombrady011235 11h ago
I’ve never heard that position before. Interesting
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u/MiraculousAnarchy veganarchist 10h ago
It’s fairly common if not the default for anarchists as is animal liberation and often veganism. Total liberation or bust✊🩷
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u/constantdaydream44 14h ago
You would like to abolish prison? How would we manage the people who are a threat to society and need to be permanently separated from it? I think we need a prison reform, I think there needs to be a stronger effort to rehab prisoners. I do think some need to be locked away forever because they are too violent.
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u/MiraculousAnarchy veganarchist 14h ago
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u/FailedCanadian 5h ago
I am against the death penalty but not for vegan related reasons. To me, veganism is fundamentally about how you treat individuals who in your out group. Animals are not capable of honoring any social contract but veganism says that we should extend certain rights to them anyways.
On the other hand, you are under a social contract with every other human on Earth. If capital punishment were effective at deterring crime (it barely is) and was never used on innocent people (not even close), then I would have no issue with the idea of enforcing the punishments outlined in our social contract.
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u/Dapper-While7899 16h ago
Im against killing.
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u/EpidDrew15 16h ago
In any sense even if it means self-defense?
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u/Dapper-While7899 16h ago
I would rather not kill even in self defense
I struggle with my own stance sometimes when I see people who are rapists or hurt children, or even people who destroy the environment but ultimately I do not think any one person ought to decide if another gets to keep their existence.
It seems out of my jurisdiction and I do not want the responsibility.
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u/EpidDrew15 16h ago
That’s fair and I appreciate the honesty. As someone who is described as somewhat militant, I find killing to be regrettable, but sometimes necessary. You’re far more kind than I am. :)
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u/Dapper-While7899 16h ago
Hmm. That's interesting to me because the people who I know who eat meat describe their stance similarly- regrettable to have to take a life but they see it as necessary.
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u/EpidDrew15 16h ago
I wasn’t always a vegan, but it’s interesting to note all the same. I dunno if I see killing animals for food as “necessary” in any 1st-World context though. I do know the types you’re likely referring to.
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u/Dapper-While7899 15h ago
I agree, it is not necessary at all today, and has not been likely since the 50s at the very least.
I just think if everyone feels killing is regrettable but necessary in their particular situation, everyone suffers.
I'm told I'm idealistic.
Perhaps the world needs both types of people to make a change though- the idealists and the militants.
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u/EpidDrew15 14h ago
that wouldn’t be a terrible thing to say that you’re idealistic. I’m told that I’m often a little too realistic, so a combination is probably not a bad idea.
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u/MrBR2120 vegan sXe 16h ago edited 6h ago
i’m against the death penalty because authority is ultimately illegitimate.
mathematically, a group can not possess a right that its individual constituents themselves do not possess. any number multiplied by zero is zero. so does a single person have the right to kill another? no. how then do ten people without that right magically gain it by simply grouping up and calling themselves the state? ten people together is still just a group of ten individual people without that right.
so authority itself, especially political authority, is NOT vegan. it treats the human animal as a commodity for human use. i’m more than the product number the government gave me when i was born.
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u/Substantial_Law_5239 15h ago
Without authority, we're on our own. If we're on our own, the "death penalty" won't take 30 years.
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u/tombrady011235 11h ago
Not sure I’m following the math in that equation but definitely understandable that capital punishment is not what a modern civilized society would perform
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u/suddsong vegan 16h ago
I think the primary function of prison is about protecting the public, not about punishing the perpetrator though that is a part of it. I think you can protect the public from violent criminals without killing them. Life sentence is enough imo. Open to discussion
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u/MasteringTheFlames friends, not food 15h ago
I'm vegan and against the death penalty, but I don't necessarily think the two are correlated.
For me, it's pretty simple, I just don't think any government should be trusted with the authority to kill its own citizens. I'm by no means a small or even anti-government type, but the death penalty is a line too far for me. I've heard others arrive at my same position for reasons that I really do not agree with; execution is too easy and mass murderers deserve to suffer in prison for decades, or the misguided thought that executions save money. To the former, I would argue that the eighth amendment specifically protects against cruel and unusual punishment, and that basing our legal system upon maximizing the suffering of inmates is unethical. To the latter, I would argue that 1) it's just factually incorrect given all the appeals and other legal costs of a death penalty case, and 2) even if it were true, I'm still willing to pay a few extra bucks in taxes to avoid the greater problems of the death penalty.
I just don't trust the government with that power. Certainly not this current US government, but any other administration either. Maybe a school shooter doesn't deserve to live after their crimes, but I think Christa Pike's case has a lot more room for nuance. In that way, my objection to the death penalty is kind of similar to my arrival at veganism. Do I really care all that much about whether or not it's possible for oysters to feel pain? Honestly, no. But veganism is easier if my answer to animal products is always "no," and so is the death penalty. If I don't trust them to equitably apply it from one Pike to the next like her, then they shouldn't have the power for mass murderers either.
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u/looksthatkale 13h ago
Its tough because there are some people who are so evil I don't feel they deserve to be alive because they cause so much pain and suffering to others. At the same time, people are often wrongly convicted of crimes. We've seen examples of ppl given the death penalty who were later proven innocent.
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u/Salt_Security_2478 12h ago
I don't trust myself with deciding someone else's life so why would I trust a nihilistic state to decide if I get to live. Death penalty is about control, and I trust no one who requires coersion to live.
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u/chillestrodriguez 16h ago
In my opinion veganism should extend to being against the death penalty. Killing an animal that wants to live is wrong. There’s no ethical or humane way to kill an animal that wants to live. We know this to be true for farmed animals, I think it should be true for humans. The government should never have the authority to take a human life because that authority can and has been used incorrectly and against innocent people time and time again.
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u/constantdaydream44 16h ago
I think thats why I started questioning all of this. I KNOW their is no ethical way to kill an animal. Ethical murder is a contradiction. I sat with that for a moment and realized there is no ethical way to kill a human too. You can only make it quick and painless a possible.. but the government seems to keep failing and not getting it right.
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u/compost_bin 16h ago
Humans ARE animals, so following the standard definition of veganism (avoiding as far as practical the exploitation and unnecessary suffering of animals), then I’m not sure how a vegan can be pro the death penalty.
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u/sockdisorder 15h ago
The 'official' definitions of veganism (That is, definitions created by the inventors of the word 'vegan') have always separated humans from animals.
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u/Little-Fig4328 16h ago
Is this really accurate in practice? Like yeah I guess technically humans are animals but are mos vegans consistently focusing on doing things that are good for humans as a part of their veganism specifically?
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u/AggravatingPeak6982 16h ago
Yes. It turns out the best side benefit to not eating animals is better health!
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u/Little-Fig4328 16h ago
I don't think it's tied with veganism but I think it would be strange to be vegan (something I think is smart and born out of an awareness) and believe in the death penalty (something that is dumb, useless, and born out of extreme ignorance)
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u/constantdaydream44 16h ago
I suppose its not directly tied to veganism, but more a philosophical question. I'm anti animal agriculture, pro choice, and I was leaning more towards pro death penality, but I think I was ignorant. If someone asked me if I thought life was sacred, I would just say sometimes or just flat out no. But I'm realizing I should be anti death penality because the gov has no right taking a human life.
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u/Little-Fig4328 15h ago
Yeah that's certainly a good reason to but I think my #1 reason is that it's morally wrong to kill people lol. When we look back in history at how criminals are punished we can recognize how animalistic (acting without real thought, just emotion) it is and we call it barbaric and everything. But somehow many people are too blind to recognize that's true of today's society as well. If we take a terrible person, and all come together and decide they should die, which is what the jury system is technically supposed to do but that doesn't make sense but wtv, then we're just murdering a guy. To be capable of doing that is bad !!
I get really worked up about this and have a hard time putting it into words but there's so many reasons to be anti death penalty and hearing people are pro death penalty is the #1 thing that makes me feel upset and doom and gloom about humanity
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u/revmanda 15h ago
Yes. Killing someone doesn’t negate the murder they committed. It just adds another murder. As MLK said, violence begets violence.
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u/SophiaofPrussia friends not food 15h ago
I always think about the fucking weirdos who volunteer to execute people. The police or prison guards who raise their hand when they’re looking for people willing to pull the trigger for a firing squad. The medical “professionals” who are willing to inject poison into someone’s veins for a few thousand dollars. The deranged HVAC techs(?) who are willing to flip the switch and gas a fellow human just like the Nazis did.
Those murderers aren’t considered criminals. They walk among us. That doesn’t make me feel safe at all. That creeps me TF out.
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u/Hot-Impression8784 13h ago
I’m sure doing that job desensitizes the people to suffering, just like people who work in slaughter houses get desensitized.
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u/Historical-Ad399 15h ago
This is largely the argument for prison abolition as well, which is an idea that I'm attracted to but not bought in on. I think for me, execution is easy to reject on the grounds of there being known, effective, and easily implementable alternatives, without having to resolve bigger questions about what level of harm is acceptable in response to harm (and what goals are the acceptable ends of those harms). The prevalence of Innocents being executed is also a very strong argument, imo
None of this to say I disagree with your point, but personally, I like having very easy clear cut reasons as well. If we didn't have an alternative to execution to prevent murder in our society, I think this question becomes trickier, but because we do, it's easy.
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u/tombrady011235 11h ago
My only argument would be a lot of crimes that get the death penalty are intentional in their maliciousness, whereas animals don’t have that moral choice and are the victims of violence
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u/Substantial_Law_5239 15h ago
There is nothing ignorant about the death penalty. It's not about "it's not effective in reducing murder". So what. It's effective in giving a murderer what they deserve. Actual justice.
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u/Little-Fig4328 15h ago
Caveman logic
Justice =\ retribution
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u/Substantial_Law_5239 15h ago
Yes it does. In the real world it does. In your make believe "feelings" world, I don't really care.
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u/Little-Fig4328 15h ago
You are litteraly the one in the feelings world 😭😭😭 you want to kill someone because it makes you feel good while not bringing any material benefit to the world
The only thing you could possibly come up with to disagree with that is that it discourages murder but it just doesn't work out that way
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u/MiracleDinner vegan 16h ago
I'm against it but don't think that it invalidates being vegan if you're pro capital punishment.
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u/SophiaofPrussia friends not food 14h ago
Are you okay with the capital punishment of animals? A few weeks ago a shark off the coast of Australia attacked a swimmer. The local authorities announced they planned to locate the shark and kill it. The shark posed a danger to society. What do you think?
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u/Peachuuums friends not food 5h ago
That is so wildly different when humans have a sense of morality, ethics, and right and wrong. The shark acts purely on instinct, humans don't commit heinous crimes on instinct.
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u/Anxious_Cry_6128 16h ago
Death penalty is wrong, not because some people aren’t deserving of death; but because we can’t trust the state with the power to take a persons life like that. We have seen again and again how flawed they are with doing it. Over 200 people have been killed and then later found innocent. 276 have been botched.
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u/shumpitostick vegan 10+ years 16h ago
I don't see any contradiction between being vegan and having any kind of opinion on the death penalty.
Personally I'm kind of neutral on the death penalty issue, can see arguments both ways, don't think it's very consequential.
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u/HaveYuHeardAboutCunt 16h ago
It's a separate issue. Personally it would come down to a government error and over reach problem and the fact that it just isn't a good deterrent.
Here's a good quick video on the matter
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u/BestAdventureNow 15h ago
definitionally veganism is about animal exploitation and suffering, but if your core philosophy is opposition to unnecessary harm, supporting state execution usually creates a pretty obvious contradiction
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u/Historical-Ad399 14h ago
The vegan society defines veganism in this way:
Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose
I would not call the death penalty exploitation, but I do think it is cruelty. If we agree it is cruelty to an animal (humans are animals, of course), I guess we have to lean on the "possible and practicable" clause. We have many alternatives to the death penalty that are at least arguably more effective, so I don't think these apply
Therefore, I would argue that the death penalty is not vegan.
I would also argue it is wrong for a number of reasons:
Wrongful convictions. Look at the innocence project. The number of exonerated death row inmates is kind of shocking.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Killing is wrong. We shouldn't do it.
Existing alternatives. As mentioned above, we have good alternatives, including lifetime imprisonment that are as effective at achieving our goals.
The death penalty harms those witnessing and performing it.
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u/Fantastic-Work-7529 vegan 11h ago
So I'll break this into 2 questions.
1) are there people who, due to their own choices deserve to die.
Yes, I believe there are. I don't know enough about her case to proclaim she is one of them.
2) should we have capital punishment in practice.
I do not think there are any state bodies fit to make the decision. I think they are too prone to error and I think capital punishment in practice lacks the virtues associated with vengeance that could make it just. So it regularly kills innocent people or people who have not risen to the level to deserve it all while failing to accomplish what is important.
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u/Sea_Ring_5931 11h ago
You might be interested in the work of Oxford philosopher Jeff McMahan who wrote the book "The Ethics of Killing." He's got some interviews on Youtube where he discusses these sorts of matters. His book is also available in PDF online. My own view: you are right to question the ethics of executions as they are currently capriciously done. You are also right to be pro-choice, as fetuses are not persons in the moral sense and suffer minimally, if at all, in abortions. As far as veganism, that is an ethically good position, given the suffering that factory farmed mammals and birds undergo for their whole miserable lives and which is not outweighed by the pleasure their flesh or their hides give us in our situation where there are perfectly suitable non-cruel substitutes.
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u/constantdaydream44 10h ago
That sounds up my alley, this has been on my mind a lot the last few days. Thanks for sharing.
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u/rouleroule 10h ago
Innocent people sometimes get convicted. That's a fact and it can hardly be avoided 100% of the time.
Sometime coincidences are so crazy, so unbelievably improbable, that our mind can only think that the guy is guilty while in fact there is not one evidence which proves it beyond doubt. (It's also why I don't like the formula 'reasonable doubt', sometime doubting would indeed be quite unreasonable and yet the person is innocent.)
Because of that I think that allowing death penatly is basically synonymous with accepting that at least some innocent people will be executed. It just seems completely impossible to entirely prevent it.
And that's only one of the reasons it is, imo, unethical. We should strive to rehabilitate, and yes, this does not mean that it will always work, but we cannot know if it'ill work if we don't try.
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u/lunajmagroir vegan 20+ years 10h ago
Being vegan and pro-death penalty is probably a pretty rare position but I guess it's possible if you think the person "deserves" death but animals don't.
Personally I have been anti-death penalty my whole life, much longer than I have been vegan, and I think for me both positions are related to the Quaker concept of "that of God in everyone." (I am an atheist, but I think of it as everyone having moral value, including people who have caused harm, as well as animals of course.)
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u/No_Adhesiveness9727 vegan 20+ years 6h ago
Well one day maybe executions will be as humane as animal slaughter but there will still be innocent people being executed
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u/Quautistic 16h ago
I'm categorically against capital punishment. My belief system's core principles are clear on the matter: cultivate compassion and pursue a life of non-harm. Capital punishment doesn't have a place there.
Besides, it does no one any good. It doesn't right wrongs (retributive justice isn't justice), it doesn't meaningfully deter crime, and IMO it doesn't help those close to the original crime's victim to truly heal. It's a blood spectacle.
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u/ShoulderGreedy3262 16h ago
against. statistically, it doesnt even work. places with the death penalty do not have lower crime rates, or even lower reoffending rates
plus, giving the government the right to murder people doesnt sit well with me.
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u/Unhappy-Coast896 15h ago
I take no issue with killing (humans or animals) in self defense. For that reason I support the death penalty theoretically, though it’s generally unnecessary in our society given the existence of maximum security prisons. Farmed animals pose no threat to society as individuals, so the comparison is not appropriate in my view.
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u/CorfranGoch 15h ago
To be pro death penalty, I'd have to be OK with the number of innocent people who have been executed. Mistakes and unfair convictions happen all the time and are very difficult to reverse. To accept the deaths of innocent people doesn't seem ethical. Would someone who is willing to accept this price be happy if it was them being wrongfully convicted and killed? Or one of their children? If not, that's just hypocritical.
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u/alienreader_29 15h ago
I am strongly against the death penalty and have been for years. That's also due to the systemic factors that make it so certain people with certain backgrounds end up being more unjustly treated. There are so many cases of people who end up incarcerated, only to find out years later that they were innocent and the experiences they had to go through were horrific. I personally do not believe that we have the right to end a life, especially given the systemic bias present. I believe heavily in rehabilitation and addressing the systemic factors that make people act out.
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u/Cin131 13h ago
I don't like the death penalty, but I've seen some pretty f-ed up things, especially where little kids are involved. Chemical castration is great, but we all know there's a lot of other things pervs can use. And the kids are messed up for life. Rare, but some female children end up not being able to have children when they grow up.
I think in some extremely brutal cases, if they have DNA evidence, or other undisputable evidence the death penalty is appropriate.
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u/OrsolyaStormChaser vegan 7+ years 13h ago
I fully support capital punishment. Like a rabid animal out in the wild - some humans are too dangerous and unwilling to cohabitat respectfully among society. I shed no tears when a heinous soul is ejected from Mother Earth to ensure no future victims by their choices.
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u/Federal_Freedom6426 vegan 9h ago
I’m against the death penalty because I don’t think anyone should have the right to take away the life of another sentient being — especially not the government. I don’t have the right to kill someone, why should any government?
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u/GeAlltidUpp 12h ago
Both pro- and anti-death-penalty positions are compatible with veganism, as are different positions on abortion. If we're going by the Vegan Society's definition:
"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."
https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism
Even if veganism is defined as "man should live without exploiting animals" or simply "the boycotting of animal products", there's no inherent tension between veganism and either the death penalty or abortion.
If you base veganism on certain normative values, such as "treating others as you want to be treated" or "not harming those who are defenseless at the moment when there are other options", then there might be problems. But that caveat is true of every ethical position.
And the issue comes from the underlying values, not the applied ethical position of veganism.
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u/Ok-Enthusiasm-8605 15h ago
i think we have a society and that excuses some nonvegan acts against humans. but no government should have the power to kill someone regardless.
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u/Its_BassDaddy vegan 15h ago
I’m anti-death penalty because of the amount of errors. Any single “oops we killed the wrong guy” is unacceptable. Therefore, we should not do it.
Pedophiles make me question this from time to time but, ultimately, I know it’s not right.
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u/tombrady011235 11h ago
My only argument would be a lot of crimes that get the death penalty are intentional in their maliciousness, whereas animals don’t have that moral choice and are the victims of violence
So I think they are separate issues
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u/Puzzled-Peppers 10h ago
did we want ‘saves tax payer money’ to be a factor in whether or not we kill people?
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u/georgeec1 5h ago
I'm against the death penalty, because I don't think it's good to give the state execution powers, and we will probably always have some number of wrongful convictions. Additionally I think if a government is going to persist with the death penalty, it should be via firearm, it's far more humane for the person being killed.
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u/Head-Mistake-7788 5h ago
I don't think you should be pro capital punishment at all because governments having that kind of power can lead to all kinds of things. For example what if you kill an innocent person? What if the government decides to extend the death penalty to 'undesirable groups' or 'state enemies' or 'enemies of the people', terms which extremely vague and malleable
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u/eel-nine 3h ago
I don't think vegan and pro-death penalty is a contradiction. But I've always been extremely anti-death penalty.
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u/Teilzeitengel1 3h ago
I live in a country without it and I cant grasp why people would want to give the country the right to kill people. Also if only one innocent life gets taken by the death penalty its already really really bad. On top of that I think a life in prison will probably be worse for some people than death.
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u/hot4halloumi vegan 2h ago
I personally have never understood how anyone could be pro death penalty. This was before I became vegan too.
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u/SquishTheFlyingWitch 1h ago
There is no ethical way to slaughter/execute someone. This is something we already agree on as vegans, and I see no reason why it shouldn't apply to humans too.
The right to live should be an inherent one. One that cannot be taken away because of your actions.
The death penalty has no place in modern civilisation.
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u/littlegreyflowerhelp vegan 1h ago
I don’t trust the state to kill anyone, and I don’t believe they have the mandate to decide which human beings live or die
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u/WhatsPewNussycat 52m ago
I'm completely against capital punishment. Not because I don't think some people deserve to live, but because I think killing is bad, and the likelihood of killing someone innocent is unacceptable. Let's grant that the death penalty is justified, and that you could kill 10 000 guilty people per 1 innocent. To take their life would be unacceptable to me.
Now in reality: a conservative estimate for the amount of innocent people killed through the death penalty is 4%. Absolutely disgusting Pair that with the fact that keeping someone on death row for years and killing them is more expensive than incarceration, and there's no real life practical way of supporting the death penalty if you don't want the innocent to be killed. Life in prison is better.
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16h ago
[deleted]
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u/HaveYuHeardAboutCunt 16h ago
And then in reality that becomes the death penalty for whoever the government says is a pedophile, which the US government is very keen at the moment to liken LGBT people as.
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u/chillestrodriguez 16h ago
Exactly this. We all want rapists and pedophiles to die but in practice this allows the government to label anyone they don’t like as a pedophile to justify the death penalty. Like how they think being transgender near children makes you a sex criminal.
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u/zombiegojaejin Vegan EA 16h ago
But such a government can also imprison innocent LGBT people by calling them pedophiles. Surely that's not a good argument that a non-fascist society shouldn't imprison actual child abusers?
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u/HaveYuHeardAboutCunt 16h ago
I'm not arguing never imprison people because mistakes or bad actors might exist but imprisoned people can be released, we cannot un-kill a person.
There has to be proportionality and checks, a death penalty is too finite.
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u/zombiegojaejin Vegan EA 16h ago
I agree. I just think the particular argument "fascist government would extend punishment to lots of people who don't deserve it", by itself is a pretty bad argument not to have the punishment at all. Fascism fucks up a lot of social functions that we do still need.
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u/kirsten524 vegan 16h ago
Yeah i agree. I wish that it wasn’t such a fucked up system. In a world where actual pedos and rapists were found guilty i would say yes to the death penalty. But i always think about, what if they killed an innocent person?
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u/Few_Law1321 16h ago
I'm against the death penalty because I don't trust the system not to weaponize it. I'm watching people who were saving dogs from animal testing being threatened with a combined 711 years in prison. I've seen people die by death row who were actually innocent, especially the marginalized community. And I also do not trust that the method is humane. I know the method they use, pentobarbital, burns you from the inside out.
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u/sockdisorder 15h ago
I do not support the death penalty.
Some people may "deserve it", but that doesn't mean it should be put into practice; I do not want to stoop to the level of the perpetrator.
However, there are also sometimes unavoidable situations. For example, during a war we can't all hold hands, sing kumbaya and send out positive vibes. There are situations where it may be tactically necessary – and even justifiable – to kill opponents or aggressors, but it isn't something I would celebrate or cheer.
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u/jasonjk1 15h ago
Against it and death-by-imprisonment (life sentences without possibility of parole)
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u/zelani06 11h ago
isn't veganism advocating for the right to freedom and bodily autonomy for all sentient beings? if so, the death penalty is not compatible with veganism. maybe people here disagree with the definition I gave of veganism tho, if so, I'd be very happy to hear what it means to be a vegan for you
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u/kaybaejay 8h ago
I mean, I'm pro death penalty. I think some people are absolute monsters and it's a deserving punishment to die for their actions. You can't exactly let them out and it's a whole different kind of torture to keep them in for life. The woman who's execution was botched brutally tortured her victim. Even with the botch job... I don't think she experienced even half the pain and fear as the person she murdered.
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u/Hot-Impression8784 13h ago
I think it is too easy to execute an innocent person, and to apply the death penalty in a racist and classist manner. Also I don’t think there is much evidence that it is a deterrent to violent crimes.
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u/DocumentWarm5101 13h ago
I agree with the death penalty only for those who abuse animals; otherwise I think that it is barbaric but to be honest I do not want to waste my life paying taxes for peados to be imprisoned
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u/SteveorJimmyorJack 15h ago
I´m vegan. I respect every living being, but the only reason why I´m against death penalty is because of so many innocents who end up in jail and proven innocent after some years. Bill Cosby, for example. Now imagine someone sentenced to death before being able to prove his innocence? The law commits serious mistakes, always been and will always be like that.
Being vegan has nothing to do with being pro death. Because I respect animals, doesn´t mean I have respect for criminals. And animal abusers should be the first in line. I wouldn´t spare that monster Lindsay Clancy if I was the judge.
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u/arunnair87 vegan 15h ago
I think you can be vegan and any political position. I understand those on the pro death penalty side.
However, to me, the more I learn it doesn’t make sense for the government to kill someone. Add in the fact that people have been killed, later found innocent, that’s automatically a no go to me. One life innocent is too many.
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u/Spiritual-Scale-899 13h ago
Against. Our judicial system is flawed, mistakes are made, human error is unavoidable, attempts to execute have failed, and most importantly: innocent people have been executed in our country and innocent people will be convicted of crimes they didn’t commit in the future. It is expensive, and frankly it is archaic and barbaric. I understand why grieving loved ones and society would desire this, of course. That doesn’t provide satisfactory justification, though, and after learning facts, figures, stats, and rationale, it is my opinion that as a collective, we could abolish the practice and move forward with progressive and pragmatic policy making and social justice initiatives leading the way into the future with little resistance.
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u/living4him1238 15h ago
Great question! I am a Consistent Life Ethicist. I have made several posts in other forums about it too. I disagree with the death penalty just like I disagree with eating meat/animal flesh. I don't feel you can be Vegetarian or Vegan and still support the death penalty. (I also feel that way in regards to abortion too....but that's another story for another day.) To stay on topic to your post, I am glad you're reconsidering what you believe and trying to lean toward consistency. That's a very good thing to do!
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u/constantdaydream44 15h ago
Thanks! I think it's important to question your own beliefs sometimes. I need to make sure they make sense 😅
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u/living4him1238 15h ago
I'm right there with ya! Right on.
A lot of Consistent Life Ethicists are not Vegetarian or Vegan, just for the record. I expand my views to include 'Consistent Life Ethics' for animals too. But, the original definition of Consistent Life Ethicism only applies to human beings. But, I feel animals should be included in that and hopefully one day the definition will broaden.
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16h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/ivanabrike vegan activist 16h ago
“Convicted murderers are by definition guilty” Murder makes up the largest category of wrongful convictions, accounting for up to 50% of exonerations
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u/Consistent-Star5745 veganarchist 15h ago
If we cut the red tape, we'll have even more innocent people being executed. The death row appeals process is long and thorough for a reason.
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u/Consistent-Star5745 veganarchist 15h ago
You deleted your comment about not being aware of wrongful executions ever happening, but I'm going to drop this here anyway
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution?wprov=sfla1
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u/DaniCapsFan vegan 10+ years 15h ago
The idea being being pro-choice and vegan is that the pregnant person's rights supersede any supposed rights a ZEF might have. Abortion does not cause suffering, but numerous women denied abortions when their pregnancies failed suffered terribly before they died.
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u/ChocolateCosmos123 15h ago
Does anyone else also see the death penalty being wrong from the perspective that it means a normal person has to become a murderer? To make things worse, it is usually prison staff if I have heard correctly so not medically trained people- but in any case, it is turning normal/‘decent’ people into someone who killed another person. I am not really religious but I’ve always wondered this from a religious perspective too
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