r/masseffect • u/FloorAgile3458 • Jun 12 '26
DISCUSSION Was there any point in going to Ilos?
Since Shepard and the gang just end up at the citadel anyway, wouldn't it have been more effective to simply wait for Saren like the council wanted? If Shepard was at the citadel, they could have protected the council and possibly killed Saren before he got to the tower. The whole situation would have ended better. The council was right, their reasoning was just off a bit.
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u/Shiboleth17 Jun 12 '26
He had no idea Saren was going to the Citadel. He had no idea what the Conduit was.
Had he just waited, Saren would likely have succeeded. Even if Shep was on the Citadel when Saren showed up, he wouldn't have known to go up to the council chambers. He wouldn't have known what Saren was up to, or how to stop him. He only knew all that because he talked to Vigil.
Had he not gone to Ilos, we wouldn't have known the Reaper's history or overall plan. We wouldn't have known that the Prothean scientists reprogrammed the keepers, and prevented the Reapers from coming. Etc. Talking to Vigil was a huge lore drop.
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u/FloorAgile3458 Jun 12 '26
Also, Shepard did know Saren was planning on attacking the citadel, that's literally why the council fleets were there in the first place.
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u/Diamondrankg Jun 12 '26
Not quite, the council assumes he would because it's where the council is. Atp no one knows what the conduit is, just that it's integral for the Reapers to return. For all Shep knew the conduit was the "Summon Reapers" button
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u/FloorAgile3458 Jun 12 '26
For all Shepard knew, the conduit was a super bomb that could end all organic life, which is why they made such an effort to get to Ilos, however Shepard believing it's a weapon doesn't actually make it a weapon.
If Shepard listened to the council AND was on the presidium when Saren attacks, they could have prevented Saren from reaching the council chambers thereby preventing sovereign from closing the arms, which causes sovereign to be destroyed much more quickly, which prevents the council from being in danger, which prevents the alliance from sacrificing 8 ships defending them.
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u/Diamondrankg Jun 12 '26
Sure, if Shep had knowledge to be in the right place at the right time they may have been able to stop Saren from getting to the council chamber.
But then you also need to consider the conduit spits you out right next to the elevator that goes to the council chamber. Remember that as events go in the game, you reach the conduit mere minutes after Saren and that's enough time for Saren to get in and shut it down.
It'd just make for a boring story if Shep did nothing and Saren fell in their lap
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u/FloorAgile3458 Jun 12 '26
Shepard would only have to be on the presidium for this to work. If Shepard is on the Normandy or in the wards, they would be too far, but if they were in the embassy or council chambers themselves (which would both be likely as Shepard would likely still be arguing to go to Ilos) they could easily catch Saren in time.
It would definitely be less pleasing narratively, but a lot less people would be dead.
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u/Shiboleth17 Jun 12 '26
If Shepard listened to the council AND was on the presidium when Saren attacks, they could have prevented Saren from reaching the council chambers
Shepard didn't know Saren was going to the council chambers. Shep would not have known that Saren was even on the citadel, until it was too late, as everyone would have probably assumed Saren was on board Sovereign. So unless Shep just so happens to bump into Saren on the presidium, why would Shep go up to the council chambers, and not try and get the Normandy into the air?
Also, you're missing the point. Shep didn't know the Citadel was Saren's the ultimate goal. They didn't know what the Condiut was, only that Saren and Sovereign wanted to find it. They assumed the Codnuit was a weapon, or something that could summon the Reapers. Waiting for Saren on the Citadel could have meant the death of everyone in rhe galaxy. Going after Saren was the right call under those assumptions.
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u/FloorAgile3458 Jun 12 '26
Although making the decision to take action was the right one, my question was moreso about the overall effect it would have if Shepard never went to Ilos.
However I don't think it takes a genius to figure out where Saren was going, the only thing I think would prevent Shepard from immediately going to the council would be an attempt to protect civilians from the geth.
It's also important to point out that nearly everything Shepard learns from Vigil was figured out by third parties by ME 2, like the keepers.
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u/Shiboleth17 Jun 12 '26
If Shep doesn't go to Ilos, we never meet Vigil. And thus, much of the reaper's history and intentions remains a mystery. We also never learn that the Citadel is a trap, a large mass relay into dark space. So when Sovereign and the geth attack the Citadel, it just looks like they are trying to conquer it. We wouldn't know they are there to summon the rest od the reapers. And thus, our goals in that battle would be completely different.
Even if by some miracle, we find out Saren is going to the council chambers, it probably looks like he's trying to kidnap or assassinate the council. But the council is safe on the Ascension (or dead). So there's no reason to chase Saren up there. We have no reason to risk the lives of millions of poeple to try to stop whatever Saren is doing. Instead, our goals would be to protect lives and get people to safety, along with protecting key resources... then deal with Saren after.
You don't throw away millions of lives to protect an empty council chamber... unless going up to the empty council chambers could save trillions of lives by stopping the reapers from coming through the relay.
Sure, we might have learned everything we got from Vigil through other sources. But too late. We needed that information before Sovereign attacks the Citadel, not after.
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u/FloorAgile3458 Jun 12 '26
Literally everything in your first point is figured out by ME2. The guys scanning the keepers figure out what the citadel is. Sovereign literally tells Shepard the reapers plan on virmire. Liara is a prothean expert that knew about the civilization cycles before Shepard even meets her, ITS LITERALLY IN ONE OF HER FIRST VOICE LINES. Literally nothing important we learn from Vigil is exclusive to vigil, he just confirmed what was already known or what would be figured out within a year.
What do you mean we have no reason to risk lives to stop Saren? THAT'S LITERALLY THE WHOLE POINT OF THE GAME. Shepards one goal from the very beginning has been to stop Saren no matter the cost, that's literally why Ashley or Kaiden dies on virmire. Wherever Saren is, that's Shepards goal.
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u/Shiboleth17 Jun 13 '26
Sure, we can get most of what Vigil says in ME 2, 2 years later. And this is 2 years too late to use that information to stop Saren and save the galaxy.
Knowing the cycles is irrelevant. I don't know why you are so hung up on that. Yes, we knew about the cycles before Vigil. I never said we didn't. The information Shep gets from Vigil is that the Citadel is a mass relay linking to the reapers. And that to activate it, Saren needs to be in the council chambers.
Without this info, Shep has no idea where Saren is, or where he is going. Without this info, Shep doesn't know why Sovereign and the geth are attacking the Citadel. So unless Shep gets super lucky and bumps into Saren on his way up to to the council chambers, Shep has no reason to go up there where Saren is.
...
Imagine you're Shepard. You didn't go to Ilos, just like you think is best..
A massive fleet of ships, including the reaper associated with Saren, is attacking the Citadel. The council is evacuated onto the Ascension. So there is no reason to go defend an empty council chamber.
As far as you know, teleporting inside the Citadel is impossible. Which means Saren can't be inside the Citadel, and he must still be on Sovereign.
You know Saren just went where the conduit was, and now he's making a big attack, so he must have found what he was looking for. Your current ideas on the conduit are that it could be a superweapon, or it somehow summons the reapers. Either way. Bad. You need to take it, and/or destroy it. And where is it? Probably with Sovereign if they haven't used it already.
Where do you go? Not the council chambers. You get in the Normandy and join the battle in space. There's nothing important in the council chambers you are aware of. By the time you figure out Ssren is there, it will be too late.
But by going to Ilos, you learn where Saren is going and what he is trying to do. And you're only about a minute or two behind him, so you can be there in time to stop him.
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u/Heather_Chandelure Jun 12 '26
No, because they needed the Data from Vigil in order to regain control of the Citadel from Sovereign.
And even ignoring that, taking the conduit put shepard in the best position to get to Saren. If they'd been caught unaware like the rest of the citadel, they not only would have likely been unable get past all the invading Geth and Krogan, but they wouldn't even know to head to the council chamber to stop him in the first place.
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u/FloorAgile3458 Jun 12 '26
Although I would argue that Shepard could have prevented Saren from ever gaining control of the citadel for sovereign, I can't really argue with your second point, I don't see Shepard immediately rushing to the council chambers while there is geth killing everyone.
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u/ButtcheekJones0 Jun 12 '26
The whole point is that they have no idea what the Conduit is or what it does, only that Saren wants it to help kickstart the Reaper invasion. Even if the exact same confrontation happened and Shepard stopped Saren, they wouldn't have the codes from Vigil to open the Citadel arms to prevent Sovereign from opening the Citadel relay.
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u/FloorAgile3458 Jun 12 '26
If Shepard defeats Saren before he can take control of the citadel, the codes aren't needed.
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u/OchreOgre_AugerAugur Jun 12 '26
Shepard doesn't know that they need to prevent Saren from reaching the tower terminal, and even if they did they would be expecting Saren to approach by ship and dock instead of suddenly appearing in the Presidium. So Shep would be out of position to intercept Saren before reaching the tower terminal.
It wouldn't work without some form of metagaming bullshittery, like precognition.
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u/ButtcheekJones0 Jun 12 '26
Except Shepard has no idea where Saren is on the Citadel, where he's going or what it'll accomplish. They have no way of knowing the invasion is about to start. If anyone anticipated Saren having a backdoor to the Citadel they would've fortified their defenses instead of just readying the fleets.
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u/tigojones Jun 12 '26
That completely relies on information none of the characters in the game receive till it's too late to take that course of action.
We don't find out that the Conduit is a back door to the Citadel, or that the Citadel is itself a Mass Relay that the Reapers use to launch their attack, till we speak with Vigil minutes before using the Conduit ourselves. So, we have no reason to have tighter security with more heavily armed reinforcements waiting for Saren, till it's far too late to implement.
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u/willhamlink Jun 12 '26
The reveal that the conduit was a mass relay linking to the citadel was when Shepard talks to Vigil on Ilos. All they knew was Saren was hunting for the conduit and it was on Ilos.
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u/FloorAgile3458 Jun 12 '26
Even not knowing about it, if Shepard was still on the citadel, they could have prevented Saren from reaching the council chambers, which prevents sovereign from taking control, which prevents the arms from closing, which allows the fleets to destroy sovereign much quicker, which prevents the council from being put in danger which prevents the alliance from sacrificing 8 ships defending them.
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u/ForsakenAce117 Jun 12 '26
Without Ilos, Shepherd wouldn’t have gotten the codes to from Vigil and thus wouldn’t have been able to call in the Alliance fleet or prevent Sovereign from taking control of the Citadel.
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u/DogmaKeeper Jun 12 '26
They didn't know what the Conduit was, much less what it could do. Shep and Anderson both believed it to be a weapon, not a back door. Besides, Udina wanted Shep off of the case because it was causing diplomatic issues he didn't want to deal with.
The point was that the Conduit might have been some kind of super weapon that could disable the Citadel and just made defending it even harder if not impossible. Realistically, the fact that Shep gets there right as Saren gets into the tunnels is amazing timing. The fact that he walked a few miles to the Conduit (presumably due to a lack of vehicles), Shep was basically on his ass the whole time.
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u/Cultureddesert Jun 12 '26
Even without Saren, you'd still need to stop Sovereign, of which it required essentially a whole human fleet to do so, and they were only able to hit sovereign because Shepard was able to open the Citadel using the codes it got from Vigil iirc.
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u/Ackapus Jun 12 '26
Shepard needed the override command codes from Vigil to counter ANY Reaper control over the Citadel- although if Shepard just stays on the Citadel till Saren shows up and fights him then, there's nothing to say Shep still can't go to Ilos afterwards for them. Vigil wasn't going to flatline from being in standby for another few days.
Which leads to the assault itself. Saren appears through the Conduit, right outside the Tower, and starts his assault as armies of geth heretics fan out through the Presidium to cause chaos. Best case scenario, Shepard chose the Council chamber to make their stand, and Saren doesn't get to the control panel to even put in Sovereign's override. Problem is Sovereign itself- it's still an out-of-box problem for the Citadel fleet. Just one Reaper is still enough to lay waste to every ship in the galaxy as long as they keep attacking it without the coordinated mobilization that ME3 organized. Everyone thought it was just a just geth dreadnought and treat it as such, and they got roflstomped for their trouble. When Sovereign has to focus its processing power on Saren's implants to resurrect his dead body into !cyber-Saren, it's left stunned and vulnerable with its barriers down after Shepard wins Round Three, and the Fifth Fleet puts it down for good. Without Saren reaching the Council Chamber control panel, inviting Sovereign to make itself vulnerable by interfacing with the Citadel, and then forcing Sovereign to focus its processing power on the fight with Shepard because it couldn't risk blowing up the control interface point in the Council Chamber, Sovereign annihilates every fleet that shows up to stop it and Shepard faces an army of geth all at once at the conduit.
Of course, there's no way Shepard could know any of that, even if they had some idea what Sovereign really was from their most cinematic conversation on Virmire. Shepard's main reason for running to Ilos was that they didn't know the nature of the Conduit, just that it had been referred to multiple times (by Saren and in the Prothean beacon) as somehow being the key to controlling if the Reapers get back to kill everyone again. It wasn't a matter of trying to get ahead of Saren, it was also understanding what he was up to, and how he was going to do it.
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u/FloorAgile3458 Jun 12 '26
You were right about everything but 2 parts. Sovereign needed Saren to gain control of the citadel arms; Prevent Saren from reaching the council chambers, you prevent the arms from closing. As for the battle itself, it should go almost identically to what happens in game, the only difference would be sovereign doesn't get the protection of the citadel arms meaning the fleets can destroy sovereign much more quickly which would result in far less death.
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u/Ackapus Jun 12 '26
The arms don't mean anything- Sovereign needed Saren to override the sabotage the Protheans had done to prevent Reaper control of the Keepers, so its could then open the relay to dark space.
Without Shepard at all- Saren grants control back to Sovereign, who eventually opens the Dark Space relay. Any defending fleets in range won't know to focus fire on Sovereign and will spend just as much time scrapping with the geth fleet. Arms opened or closed, without Sovereign getting stunned by Saren crashing out to Shepard's assault, there's no way the Citadel defenders even bring down Sovereign's barriers before the rest of the Reaper forces arrive.
With Shepard staying on the Citadel, no override codes from Vigil- everyone's still in the same positions to resist except Saren potentially has a much tougher fight on his hands. He shows up with an army of geth that don't thin out until he gets to the Council chambers, so unless Shepard's waiting for him up there, Shepard's bogged down fighting unending waves of geth (who can reinforce through the Conduit as much as they need since Shepard didn't blast their way through Ilos getting there) and Saren proceeds with his plan as before.
Only way that changes is if Shepard somehow knows to lay in wait for Saren at the Council Chamber and ambush him there. In that case, no control override, and Sovereign will simply lay waste to more of the Fifth Fleet in direct engagement. We can assume the fight between Saren and Shepard goes about the same, which would mean a similar fate for Sovereign once it's stunned from the feedback of !cyber-Saren getting sauced. Again, Sovereign is more than a match for standard fleets using standard fleet warfare, which is spelled out a number of times in ME3. Unless the combined fleets of all Citadel races show up at the exact same time to engage Sovereign, it's functionally invulnerable against their tactics. If Saren can't reach the control panel and allow it to interface with the station, Sovereign can remain mobile, and nothing the Citadel arms do will prevent it from actively engaging any fleet that shows up to stop it.
So to respond directly- preventing Saren from just reaching the Council Chambers gets more and more geth invading the Citadel until that happens, Nothing Shepard can do will stop that. Also, closing the arms doesn't matter at all to what Sovereign's capable of. You're vastly overestimating what the Citadel races' fleets can do to a Reaper before ME3 when they adopt new anti-Reaper tactics, new anti-Reaper technology, and start listening to Shepard.
At the end of the fight, when Sovereign is stunned and floats away from the Presidium Tower, Hackett gives the order for all ships to focus fire on Sovereign, remember? "All ships, now's our chance!" You ever wonder WTF "all ships" were doing that didn't already involve focusing all available firepower on the two-kilometer killer cuttlefish that was scrapping everything around it? Answer is they were also engaging with the geth fleet that was slightly more an immediate threat since Sovereign's main gun was not a threat so long as the arms were closed and it was docked. If you prevent Saren from reaching the controls, Sovereign doesn't dock, it joins the fleet battle alongside the geth with its full arsenal, and the Fifth Fleet burns before Shepard even gets to the first Paragon/Renegade conversation check.
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u/FloorAgile3458 Jun 12 '26
What I'm not understanding is why you believe the fleets wouldn't do exactly what they did in game. True, Shepard didn't tell them to focus on sovereign until after they defeat Saren but Saren gets defeated quicker here meaning Shepard tells the arriving human fleets to focus on sovereign just like in game, the only difference would be the timing.
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u/Ackapus Jun 12 '26
Shepard didn't tell anyone to do anything. That order came from Hackett, who saw that Sovereign had lost barriers and gone limp.
Shepard was on the station and was just fighting with Saren's reanimated corpse; they didn't know jack or shit about what Sovereign's current combat status was.
What the fleets did, in game, was nothing but die in droves until Sovereign stopped shooting.
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u/Erebus03 Jun 12 '26
Vigil gave them the Codes to stop Sovereign from activating the Citadel Relay and thus stopping the Reapers.
ALSO Shepard at the time thought "The Conduit" was a weapon, you know maybe something that could 1 Hit KO the entire Citadel Fleet? What would of happened then?
Did you only Read the Synopsis of the game and not actually play it?
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u/FloorAgile3458 Jun 12 '26
Vigil gave Shepard the codes to gain control of the citadel from sovereign. Control sovereign would never get if Saren doesn't reach the council chambers.
Did you only read the comments and not the post itself?
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u/Erebus03 Jun 12 '26
Ohhh Nice come back!
Notice how you decided not to comment on my second point, only First and Third though
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u/FloorAgile3458 Jun 12 '26
Because it doesn't matter? Shepard believe it's a weapon doesn't automatically make it a weapon lmfao. Do you have the critical thinking skills of a dog?
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u/Erebus03 Jun 12 '26
Shepard thinks its a Weapon, so they go to stop Saren from getting said weapon only to find out its not a Weapon, just a Backdoor onto the Citadel,
Meanwhile you who knows its a Backdoor onto the Citadel just goes "Well then Shepard never needed to go to Ilos in the first place since the Conduit is not a weapon" your using future Knowledge to poke holes in past points in the game
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u/FloorAgile3458 Jun 12 '26
It doesn't change the fact that if Shepard never went to Ilos it wouldn't automatically make conduit a weapon. If Shepard simply listened to the council, Saren would have shown up exactly where and when he did in game literally the ONLY difference would be Shepard would be able to catch him before he reached the council chambers. Learn to read before being a toxic little worm.
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u/Deep-Crim Jun 12 '26
Wasn't there something that needed activated on Ilos by shepherd and company?
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u/FloorAgile3458 Jun 12 '26
Nope. The only thing of importance that Shepard gets from Ilos is the code to take the citadel back from sovereign, which only matters if Saren reaches the council chambers.
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u/Wilbie9000 Jun 12 '26
From your perspective as a player, yes. The ideal course of action would have been to fortify the council chambers, lock down the admin consol, and place a couple dozen heavily armed soldiers along with Shep and his team. Bring the various fleets into close proximity of the Citadel and just wait. Saren shows up and doesn't even get a chance to make his speech before getting turned into a fine pink mist. Credits roll.
But within the game, all the characters know is that Saren is looking for the Conduit, and that the Conduit is the key to bringing back the Reapers. They don't actually know what the Conduit is, and so they make the completely reasonable assumption that if Saren is looking for it, it's in their best interest to stop him from getting it.
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u/FloorAgile3458 Jun 12 '26
I'm not even saying bring in the fleets, as the greatest advantage the council had was the humans showing up as reinforcements instead of being part of the main fleet.
Given the information Shepard had, going to Ilos was technically the right choice, but the point is that the council was right when they told Shepard not to, they just didn't know why they were right.
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u/JJBrazman Jun 12 '26
Not only does Shepard need the information from Vigil, but you have to remember that before you go to Ilos, Shepard is grounded and there’s an entire fleet parked right there. What would a single grounded person be able to do that the local security and fleet wouldn’t have done when the Geth attacked?
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u/FloorAgile3458 Jun 12 '26
What information exactly does Shepard need from Vigil? Assuming Saren is stopped before he can close the arms, nothing Shepard learns from Vigil is that important. Shepard already knows the reapers want to wipe out the galaxy, sovereign literally tells them so on virmire. The guys scanning the keepers find out what they really are by ME2. Everything else of importance is found out by Cerberus. So I ask again, what information was really that important that isn't found out by someone else in the near future?
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u/JJBrazman Jun 12 '26
Vigil gives Shepard a data file that temporarily removes Sovereign’s control of the Citadel. That’s crucial to stopping him from opening the mass effect relay that brings in all the Reapers from Dark Space.
He also tells you that the cycles have occurred over and over, what the Citadel really is, and what the Protheans did at Ilos to sabotage the Reapers’ plan. All important stuff.
But most importantly, there’s no way they would have stopped Saren before he could close the arms. They had no idea what he was doing until he appeared at the foot of the tower. He had an entire fleet attacking as a distraction.
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u/FloorAgile3458 Jun 12 '26
If Shepard prevents Saren from ever closing the arms in the first place, he wouldn't need to regain control of the citadel.
Literally none of the cycle stuff matters for the task at hand. It's interesting, but not only is it meaningless, sovereign literally tells you all that on virmire.
If Shepard was literally anywhere on the presidium they easily could have gotten to Saren in time to stop him. Saren had a huge head start on Shepard in game, if Shepard was already there, Saren likely wouldn't have made it halfway to the council chambers
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u/JJBrazman Jun 12 '26
Saren was literally minutes ahead of Shepard, and managed to get the arms closed. Shepard would pretty much have had to be in the council chamber to stop him.
Also, closing the arms didn’t actually require Saren - we saw the Geth taking over Citadel Control. So Shepard would have had to be both in Citadel Control and in the Council Chamber to stop Saren from closing the arms.
Ultimately your point is that if Shepard happened to be in the right place then he needn’t have fulfilled a bunch of the plot. But the plot was what got him to that place (physically and in understanding). He’d spent most of the game trying to figure out what the Catalyst even was! So perhaps if he’d hung out at his favourite fish restaurant and then nipped to the citadel tower at the right moment then maybe things could have gone differently, but I don’t think that’s a realistic series of events, nor is it a more interesting one.
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u/FloorAgile3458 Jun 12 '26
Saren was far more than minutes ahead. He was able to fight through the entire citadel Tower to get to the council chambers before Shepard even arrived on the citadel and had the arms closed before Shepard was even half way up the tower.
As for the geth in citadel control, I didn't think about that, however without Saren in the tower to gain complete control of the citadel, Shepard could have just opened the arms from the tower or prevented them from closing in the first place.
You are right about it being less narratively pleasing though. Although the story wouldn't be as good, the results of the battle would be far better for the citadel with far fewer casualties.
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u/JJBrazman Jun 12 '26
Saren had the benefit of an elevator, which he then stopped Shepard from using.
Most importantly, even if Shepard had magically been in the exact right place, he wouldn’t have known what Saren was doing. So he wouldn’t have been able to stop it.
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u/FloorAgile3458 Jun 12 '26
The elevator doesn't magically make all the guards in the tower disappear. Saren still had to fight through the tower to reach the council chambers which had to take time.
Really the only thing preventing Shepard from stopping Saren in time would be being away from the presidium, which there is an equal chance of them being in the presidium as being in the wards or on the Normandy.
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u/JJBrazman Jun 12 '26
You’re ignoring half of what I’m saying. I’m not going to engage any further.
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u/InappropriateHeron Jun 12 '26
Well, suppose Shep never leaves the Citadel after getting impounded because they fail to override Normandy's locks or whatever.
Suppose the Commander can stop Saren from reaching whatever that was in the Council chamber. With a little help from their friends.
Suppose Sovereign's shields glitch or whatever that is when Saren dies, and the combined fleets take it down.
Sure, could work, maybe
Seems a bit underwhelming, from a storytelling perspective, but other than that, Vigil's arc is self-contained. There's a couple of mentions in the sequels, but it doesn't mean anything beyond that
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u/FloorAgile3458 Jun 12 '26
This is exactly my point. Almost everything we learn from Vigil is learned by Cerberus and the guys scanning the keepers anyway. Although it's not as narratively pleasing, the objective outcome would be the battle ending significantly faster and saving significantly more lives, not to mention the council would likely never be in the danger they were in meaning the alliance would never have to sacrifice anyone to save them.
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u/InappropriateHeron Jun 12 '26
True.
On the other hand, the whole plot depends on inability of an elder machine god to get through some code the lesser beings have thrown together after getting to the Citadel and altering the Keepers
Or on the collective inability of the elder gods to notice the relay in the middle of the Presidium, the one those lesser beings' getting on the Citadel in the first place hinges on
The whole thing really just collapses the moment you start worrying at the loose threads, so I try not to
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u/Driekan Jun 12 '26
Frankly, that last step-
Suppose Sovereign's shields glitch or whatever that is when Saren dies, and the combined fleets take it down.
Isn't even necessary. The lore we get in ME3 makes it clear that Sovereign was going to die in seconds in that fight, whether Shepard was involved or not.
If Shepard prevents Saren from getting to the Council chambers, it is game over for Sovereign. Which, to be honest, means that Sovereign's plan was kind of dogshit.
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u/InappropriateHeron Jun 12 '26
I feel that the Reapers are seriously nerfed in the third.
Strictly speaking, even the first game does the concept of Reapers dirty. It shouldn't be possible to damage something with a billion years technological headstart, but for the plot to work it should be.
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u/FloorAgile3458 Jun 12 '26
I don't think any of the games did the reapers justice. The worst part though was how the devs gave a perfect explanation for why the reapers do what they do in the second game just for the third game to completely ignore it.
Imagine how cool the reapers could have been if each reaper that appears on screen resembled a different species like how the final boss in ME2 was a human reaper. It would also line up a whole lot better with the leviathan lore.
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u/InappropriateHeron Jun 12 '26
I understand why they would skimp on all those models and art.
What I don't understand is why they didn't stay with "proliferating hiveminds" theme they established in ME2.
It wouldn't even hurt synth vs ganics running theme, they could actually enhance each other: desperate ganics turning to merging first their minds to get a computational edge against AI, and then going all the way with it. After which they begin to uplift, in their own way, all species that keep evolving in the galaxy
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u/FloorAgile3458 Jun 12 '26
Budget wise I get it, but I still feel like dropping one of the most interesting parts of the reapers just so you can have a bunch of them at once is just lazy.
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u/Driekan Jun 12 '26
I agree. The ME3 nerf to the Reapers is one of my pet peeves with that game.
The hindsight revelation that Sovereign was terrified, cornered and dying while we fought Saren is... I dunno, it changes the vibe of the whole thing.
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u/Vodkawithapplejuice Jun 12 '26
Im sorrry what lore in ME3 tells us that Sovereign was gonna die in seconds?
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u/Driekan Jun 13 '26
ME3 Codex on the Reaper war informs us that four Alliance Dreadnoughts firing at a Reaper will kill it. Sovereign had far in excess of that amount of firepower pouring into him, and by the time the fight with Cyborg Saren starts, he had had that for some time already.
No matter what Shepard does, those were the final instants of Sovereign's life.
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u/Vodkawithapplejuice Jun 13 '26
Yeah but you also forget one thing that it was due to development of Thanix weapons which were created after Turians and Alliance got their hands on Sovereign cannon. Before that it took literally entire fleet (Hackett words) to take Sovereign down not just 4 dreadnaught and before Shepard 'glitched" Sovereign it was holding their own.
So its not really some form of reaper nerf, rather its that Council fleets got an upgrade in 2 -3 years between BoC and Reaper Invasion.
Dont get me wrong they would probably destroy Sovereign eventually but imo you overstimating amount of damage they did to Sovereign prior to "glitch", they couldnt even get its shields down so it definetly wasnt "matter of seconds"
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u/Driekan Jun 13 '26
The Thanix is a small weapon for fighters and frigates, not a main weapon for dreadnoughts. In any case, it is impossible to retrofit 8 dreadnoughts in a year and some change, especially while also building a new one.
It's a nerf. Per ME3 lore, Sovereign was not holding its own, its shield was about to fail and as soon as it did, it would die in a handful of shots (as it did, mere seconds earlier, by Shepard triggering that glitch).
(Also per ME3 lore, Sovereign didn't need to do this whole multi-century plot that exposed the Reapers to discovery and himself to the risk of death, he could have just waited two and a half years and the Reapers could start harvesting in the early 20th century)
To be very clear with the point: ME3 is full of retcons to what Reapers can and cannot do, and those broadly make the earlier games disjointed.
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u/Vodkawithapplejuice Jun 13 '26
The Thanix is a small weapon for fighters and frigates, not a main weapon for dreadnoughts.
You wrong. https://masseffect.fandom.com/wiki/War_Assets/Alien#Volus_Dreadnought_Kwunu Unless you wanna tell me that only Voluses are good enough to put Thanix main guns on their Dreadnought... which is something I wont buy
In any case, it is impossible to retrofit 8 dreadnoughts in a year and some change, especially while also building a new one.
2 Dreadnought in 2 years actually. (difference between ME1 and ME2 for Turians and Humans). So... Dreadnought per year and some change. Theres is some information on Wiki about ninth Deadnought humanity produced right before invasion but I couldnt find anything in codex about that. Mb it was mentioned somewhere else.
Also why exactly they couldnt retrofit dreadnoughts? (and no, common sense is a bad argument, we talking about Mass Effect here lol)
It's a nerf. Per ME3 lore, Sovereign was not holding its own, its shield was about to fail and as soon as it did, it would die in a handful of shots (as it did, mere seconds earlier, by Shepard triggering that glitch).
What exact evidence you have about Sovereign losing its shields though? Not in " a lore' but during actual events of the game? Right there's none. So Shepard involvent is direct reason why Sovereign was destoroyed OR at very best was destroyed not until Alliance lost majority of fleets involved. You can speculate about nerfs and such but this speculations and headcannons while events of the game clearly established what happened.
And even if you wanna speculate... Thanix weapons is the clear answer. Can be mounted on everything and even made into rockets for ground warfare. Thats why Galaxy fleets could deal some damage during invasion unlike in 2183.
To be very clear with the point: ME3 is full of retcons to what Reapers can and cannot do, and those broadly make the earlier games disjointed.
Which is more reason to take events of games at face value. Plot is more important then some lore inconsistencies. So Shepard involvment is KEY reason why Sovereign was defeated and trip on Ilos is important part of that
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u/Driekan Jun 13 '26
You wrong. https://masseffect.fandom.com/wiki/War_Assets/Alien#Volus_Dreadnought_Kwunu Unless you wanna tell me that only Voluses are good enough to put Thanix main guns on their Dreadnought... which is something I wont buy
You're right that it describes even the main gun being that - but also this is a ship built after the BoC, and doesn't in any way determine that it's viable to retrofit dreadnought axial guns for that broadly.
Also why exactly they couldnt retrofit dreadnoughts? (and no, common sense is a bad argument, we talking about Mass Effect here lol)
An axial weapon is the central element of a ship, it's what everything else rests on. This is like retrofitting the hull of a ship: it is about as expensive and laborious as building a whole new ship.
What exact evidence you have about Sovereign losing its shields though? Not in " a lore' but during actual events of the game?
None, that's why it's a retcon.
And even if you wanna speculate... Thanix weapons is the clear answer.
It's not. The description of both Thanix weapons and of axial guns in dreadnoughts precludes that.
The simple fact is that they wanted to make a game where you fight Reapers the whole game and don't lose, so the Reapers had to get nerfed.
Which is more reason to take events of games at face value.
But the face value of one game contradicts the other.
The face value of ME1 is Sovereign is an awesome badass who needed to do this multi-century scheme to make the Reaper invasion happen and it only failed because of extreme and unpredictable factors.
The face value of ME3 is the Reapers could have invaded any time they felt like since the late 19th century and Sovereign's plan was idiotic, suicidal dog shit.
It just isn't compatible. One has to pick one, and I think ME1 is the better story (and the original one, pre-retcon).
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u/Vodkawithapplejuice Jun 13 '26
An axial weapon is the central element of a ship, it's what everything else rests on. This is like retrofitting the hull of a ship: it is about as expensive and laborious as building a whole new ship.
yeah thats fair point, I agree with that
The face value of ME3 is the Reapers could have invaded any time they felt like since the late 19th century and Sovereign's plan was idiotic, suicidal dog shit.
I partially agree BUT entire point of Sovereign citadel scheme is more about convenience for Reapers to take over galaxywide hub and control all the logistics through controlling mass relays. Ultimately it gave people of the galaxy fighting chance which they used.
Issue is that in ME3 reapers as powerful as plot demands it so Sovereing scheme indeed looks kinda bad. Like fly through entire darks space? Sure no problem. Take over Earth and Karshan in matter of days? Fine. Capture and move citadel whenever they want? They got it. But they also vulnerable when plot demands it.
So while of course their original plan to use CItadel as giant relay in dark space is good but this whole Sovereign plan is just unneccesary risk. More over if Sovereign did nothing they would jump the galaxy and easily took over.
If writers made some sort of a point like - Travel from Dark Space is energy draining thats why reapers are weaker and vunerable now it would be a good solution for this issue - they still strong af, but weaker than Sovereign in ME1. Also make more emphasis on upgrades that Milky Way species got from Sovereign itself. It would put more weight in what Shepard accomplished during trilogy and pretty much fixes the issues you brought up
So yeah you right, I agree with your points.
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u/Poncho_TheGreat Jun 12 '26
They didn’t know what the Conduit was so finding it was their only option. They theoretically could have stayed on the Citadel and stopped Saren but that would mean Shepard would have to run immediately to the Council Chambers (which he doesn’t know that’s where Saren is heading) before he reaches it and shuts down the Citadel, because without the code from Vigil he can’t regain control and open them again.
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u/vorcha_enthusiast Jun 12 '26
The biggest thing I haven't seen anyone else mention is that, while it's logical to assume Saren + Reaper forces would eventually attack the Citadel, we don't actually know what the Conduit is at all prior to getting to Ilos. Shepard has no reason to assume it's a back door into the Citadel, and could just as easily assume it's some sort of Reaper WMD that would render all Citadel defenses useless (or a way to summon the Reapers themselves -- there is almost no pre-Ilos discussion on WHAT the Conduit is, just WHERE it might be.)
Knowing what we all know from playing the game, OP is correct that Shepard probably would have stopped Saren directly if he just stays there once the Normandy is impounded by Udina, but it makes no sense for Shepard & Crew to assume that -- with all the information available to the good guys at the time, the council's decision to only increase Mass Effect Relay Defenses was extremely stupid.
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u/FloorAgile3458 Jun 12 '26
Shepard does actually believe it's a reaper super weapon, but that doesn't change what it actually is. If Shepard listened to the council and stayed on the citadel the only thing that actually changes is Shepard being on the citadel when it's most important (and technically they don't learn certain things until later but that hardly matters)
Shepard prevents Saren from gaining control of the citadel, the arms never close, sovereign gets destroyed much more quickly, the council is never put in any real danger, the alliance never sacrifices anyone to save the council.
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u/DarthDragon117 Jun 12 '26
People have already pointed out not knowing about the Citadel being the true target and the lore.
However, leaving the Citadel also meant we got to see Anderson punch Udina. That alone was worth it.
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u/FloorAgile3458 Jun 12 '26
The problem though is that Shepard literally did know that Saren was going to attack the citadel. That's why the council ships were there in the first place.
You definitely right about that second point tho, it's also much better narratively for Shepard to go to Ilos, it just means far more people died that otherwise wouldn't have.
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u/baileyjcville Jun 12 '26
The point was, you now have a game to play instead of sit and wait for the attack simulator.
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u/usernamescifi Jun 12 '26
I used to think so as well, but I think the thing you get from Vigil ends up being essential.
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u/FloorAgile3458 Jun 12 '26
It's only important if Saren reaches the council chambers. If Shepard stops that from happening, than nothing Shepard gets from Vigil is important until the third game, and by then there are other ways to figure it out.
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u/HdeviantS Jun 12 '26
If you look at it in hindsight, it might not be because as you say, they end up back on the Citadel. But they don’t know that.
They believe the conduit is a weapon or that its what directly brings the Reapers back. When they leave they believe they have to stop it from being used.
Another factor to consider is that the Conduit brings Saren and his army of geth right to the tower, a perfect backdoor spot to overwhelm and defenders and cut off reinforcements except those that come through the conduit
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u/ICLazeru Jun 12 '26
Shephard and crew didn't know that the citadel was Saren was ultimately going, they chased him ti Ilos. All they knew was that Saren wanted the conduit, but they didn't know what it was. They were following their clues to Ilos.
Plus, returning to the citadel was a tricky proposition, since when they left it was against direct orders and some criminal violence was involved, so casually showing back up without something to show for it probably wasn't a great idea.
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u/Nervous_Tailor_4337 Jun 13 '26
You're kind of right, but not completely.
By going to Ilos they meet Vigil, get information, and his data-file to given them control of the Citadel.
BUT, more than that, they didn't know what the Conduit was. As far as they new, the Conduit could have been activated on Ilos to bring the Reapers in directly.
Also, no, the Council were still wrong. They prepared for an external invasion, they hadn't prepared to defend the core of the Citadel from Saren's Army coming in the backdoor.
If Shepard had agreed to their approach, he would have been on the Normandy, in space, defending the Citadel, and likely would have been killed by the Geth.
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u/Jedi-Spartan Jun 14 '26
Shepard's main lead at the time was that there was something called the Conduit that Saren/Sovereign needed and that on Ilos. They didn't know HOW it would bring back the Reapers, just that their Saren/Sovereign thought it could. There is no way to predict that the Citadel would have anything to do with it without player knowledge, at best a strategist in universe could make an educated guess that Saren wanted to leave the Citadel fleet spread thin but that doesn't automatically equal that he needed anything from within the Citadel itself, he could've just sent a Geth Fleet there to keep up the appearance that an attack against it was his goal while using the Conduit.
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u/Drew_Habits Jun 16 '26
Shepard never played ME1, so they didn't know what the conduit was, that it led to the Citadel, or that the Citadel was crucial to the Reaper invasion
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u/Sad_Garbage6054 Jun 12 '26
Iirc, didn't Vigil give them the codes to override Sovereign's signal and open the arms of the Citidel? Without that code, defeating Sovereign would have been impossible.