r/gaming • u/Asianboiforwhitedad • 10h ago

Kingdom Come Deliverance studio co-founder says a lot of RPGs are 'still games for teenagers,' and that he's 'tired of all the RPGs where you are this chosen one'

https://www.pcgamer.com/games/rpg/kingdom-come-deliverance-studio-co-founder-says-a-lot-of-rpgs-are-still-games-for-teenagers-and-that-hes-tired-of-all-the-rpgs-where-you-are-this-chosen-one/
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146

u/HatesVegetables 10h ago

I feel like being the "Chosen One" is just a simple way for the plot to happen, especially if you were previously some random schlub who's now going toe to toe against shit like massive dragons, gods, and universal concepts given form.

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u/unoriginalcat 9h ago

I feel like it’s almost the chicken and the egg dilemma.

Is a protagonist “the chosen one” because the entire plot hinges on them, or are they simply chosen to be the protagonist because they already happen to be imperative to the plot?

If a character isn’t special in any way and nothing interesting ever happens to them, then they’re obviously incapable of being the main POV through which an exciting story is told.

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u/ba123blitz 4h ago

Imagining playing Skyrim but instead of being the Dragonborn you just hear about some shit happening every few months

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u/ThrowawayPersonAMA 53m ago

I don't have to imagine it because mods for it already exist.

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u/Dusty170 5h ago

You could play a game as the 'lucky cameraman' that watches the actual hero do all the fun stuff. Doesn't that sound like an exciting game......

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u/Valatros 2h ago

... See I know you're shitting on it, but I mean, pokemon snap was great. I could see it. Multiversal camera man, you jaunt through timelines not actually impacting anything... but taking sick photos of what other people are doing.

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u/TheArmchairSkeptic 4h ago

Is a protagonist “the chosen one” because the entire plot hinges on them, or are they simply chosen to be the protagonist because they already happen to be imperative to the plot?

They way I see it is that the protagonist is the protagonist because they're the one all this shit is happening to. If it was happening to someone else then that person would be the protagonist instead, and if it wasn't happening to anyone then there wouldn't be a story.

Chosen one, rags-to-riches, or however else you want to frame it doesn't really matter at the end of the day; at risk of sounding tautological, they're the protagonist because the story needs someone to be the protagonist and it happens to be them.

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u/xPetr1 2h ago

The obvious solution is a lower stakes story, not everything has to be about saving world. If you do have a world ending threat then yeah, main character will eventually turn into chosen one even if they aren't a chosen one in the beginning.

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u/Chowder110 3h ago

In a world with gods and dragons why are you the chosen one for being able to defeat them though. There are already more powerful beings afterall and you are probably not the first hero to appear. Honestly a warhammer game centered around gotrek and Felix would be an amazing game

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u/No_Future6959 5h ago

Interesting things happen to literally everybody all the time.

You dont need to literally be chosen by god to be a main character.

Sometimes you're just an average farmer who gets drafted into a war

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u/Banes_Addiction 4h ago

Sometimes the one needs to choose themself.

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u/unoriginalcat 7m ago

Yeah, sometimes you’re just an average farmer who gets drafter into war and then you die during your first battle.

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u/DigiornoDLC 4h ago

A good storyteller could write a compelling game about a character who has a minor impact on the life of the chosen one without being the chosen one themselves. Maybe your big accomplishment is making his sword. Or discovering a threat and avoiding being found out long enough to tell the people who can do something about it.

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u/qiaocao187 4h ago

Coming soon to steam, a 3 hour 70 dollar game

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u/DigiornoDLC 4h ago

Stardew Valley is a billion hour game about milking cows 

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u/thedefenses 9h ago

it does make the plot much easier to write and explains why YOU are the special boy here, why you can do all of these special things other can't, why you gotta be the one to do all these things that others haven't yet done for a long time etc.

Does get boring though when its used too much as with everything.

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u/Samakira 9h ago

then you get to TES and you aint just chosen, you're literally a meta-narrative device that exists outside of the setting's internal lore.

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u/thedefenses 9h ago

"Congratulations boys, we found the solution to the overabundance of the chosen one stories."

"What is it boss? How do we solve this critical problem with our plot in the current landscape?"

"We make them the mega ultra chosen one"

"Genius".

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u/Altruistic-Ad-408 9h ago

I have never seen a single person complain about the Morrowind prophecy or its implementation. So yeah, I'd chalk up the TES setting as another one thar proves it's not a problem in the current landscape (?)

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u/Samakira 9h ago

*technically* you're the unchosen one. as in, you dont exist in the story, and cannot be chosen by it, or fate, meaning that no matter how powerful your foe is, you CAN be stronger. (up to about the one lady who managed to manipulate fate itself).

all of TES' lore is canonically just a dream by an entity, and those who realize it, 'wake up' from said dream (often referred to as the act of 'chim'). because they're a PART of said dream, waking up erases them as a part of the story. so while they exist, they can no longer act on it.

each protagonist begins in some kind of jail/prison-esque situation, before being freed. its symbolic of them being freed from the dream, without being CHIM'd.

since they still exist in the story, but have 'woken up', they are free to act as they desire, and even books that show one's fate, are empty to them.

i could go on and on about how silly, yet completely founded the whole thing is, but i dont wanna blabber.

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u/xxxBuzz 5h ago

I would like to learn more about this take on the lore. I don't think I've encountered it before.

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u/Samakira 5h ago

okay, ill blabber a bit.

so, basically, there's the godhead. this entity dreamed up all of TES reality.
you can find a few references to them, such as in one of the black books from skyrim, on sosltheim.

now, select entities KNOW about the godhead's dream. (like hermaeus mora, who wrote said black books).
at this moment, there are 3 outcomes, 1 (that is none of the others) if you're a daedric lord.

1: zero-sum.
you realize you dont exist. therefore, you dont.
(this is the most common, and basically has people just disappear without explanation)
2: CHIM.
you realize you dont exist, but you DO exist. a tautology, it seems.
(you cease to exist in the world itself, but can still observe.)
3: Amaranth.
you realize you dont exist... but you still gotta exist somewhere, because otherwise, how can you be dreamed of?
(you cease to exist in the godhead's dream, but could exist in another, or begin another (this is literally all we know. we dont know what 'another' is, aside from amaranth).

if you're a daedric lord... you get to keep existing. like herma mora, or molag bal (who told vivec of this, causing vivec to CHIM)

our characters, collectively named 'the prisoner' by sotha sil, are also known as 'the hero'. it is the name for the metaphysical entities who constantly show up from some kind of imprisonment, become freed, and go on to define history. this 'breaking free' of a prison, he theorizes, is somehow giving them actual power, freeing them from more than just a literal prison.
not all prisoners who are freed are 'the prisoner', but all who are 'the hero' were 'the prisoner' and a prisoner, at some point.
(which is why each game starts that way)

speaking of dreams, CHIM, and such: dragonbreaks.

sometimes, history itself is... not right. it has contradictions. gather enough energy, and you can make such a contradiction, known as a dragonbreak.
really, its just so much meta-narrative power collecting in a place that the narrative itself begins to warp, causing splits in canon, like the jungle thats no longer there. (basically, the narrative of the jungle got CHIM'd by talos)
they're called 'dragonbreaks' because in TES, dragons ARE time. literally. its why you can't kill them without being one yourself, or capable of manipulating their power.
alduin, then, is the END of time.

thats about all we got on CHIM and the narrative itself, but when you get more into things like time, fate, shadows, and mantling, shit gets funky wild. ill pop a quick TLDR on them below, so do ask if any intrigue you:

  • dragons are time. thats why they always come back, until you make them finite.
  • shadows control luck and fate. this is why Nocturnal is the Ur-Daedra (strongest), unless you count order, which is absolute, and thus denies the potential of fate. (and why jyggalag is stronger still)
  • mantling basically tricks the dream into thinking you're the guy you pretend to be, and makes the two of you 1. it works on the same supposition as CHIM and how daedric entities dont disappear from it.
  • talos is weird. hes neither D/Aedra. not even magna-ge. just weird.

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u/xxxBuzz 4h ago

Every bit of this is delightful to hear about. As much as I've played most of the titles and talked/heard about the games and lore, all of this is completely new information for me or things I'd probably caught snippets of but forgotten. Sheogorath is what keeps popping in my head as I'm sure those stories had a lot of reveals and his interactions are like dreams within the dream. Likewise he's meant to be mad while also plausibly one of the few sane entities inside the dream. He's very relatable and it makes sense that the player characters, as a character who has some awareness of what's going on, would be of special interest to Sheogorath and other Daedras as another who can somewhat understand their plight of also being aware within the dream.

Would the "power" of the Daedra also be dependent on the prisoner or player characters. It seems kind of two fold; the prisoner gains autonomy by understanding the nature of the dream state, but if the Daedra become invested in anything such as the prisoner, they'd also plausibly risk losing power as they could get lost in the dream again by getting caught up in the stories. The CHIM and 3 outcomes idea, I'm not sure if I've heard of any of that. I suppose that's sort of what is happening in real time at the moment as I get sucked back into this lore and my memories about the game.

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u/Samakira 4h ago

not quite, no.

Sheogorath, madness and chaos, isnt really tied to the godhead as a concept or as a whole.
though we do learn a lot about mantling from him, thanks to the shivering isles DLC.

now, the daedra arent automatically aware of the dream, its just that they can be aware of it, without achieving CHIM or the like. they remain as daedra. Sheo never makes reference to it. the only one who does is herma mora, in the black book, and vivec tells us it was revealed to him by molag bal. which is why we know those 2 are aware of it, but since neither had any of the 3 occur, we know that they are, for som reason, unaffected.

as to their power, they are, on a level, stronger than the aedra, who used up vast portions of their power to make the sentient races.
Aedra: made the races
Daedra: went 'no thanks. we''ll watch."
Magna-ge: went "no, stop that. no, we dont want that. stop it." and left.

Daedra have the most direct influence thanks to retaining both their proximity and power, while the Magna-ge have control over magic (having left to aetherius, the plane of magic, creating the holes known as the sun and stars).

the daedra CAN still lay claim over the prisoner, since thats not fate, but a choice made by the prisoner to subjugate their soul to said daedra. if you were to do so to multiple daedra, the strongest, or more directly linked, would win.
(a vampire (claimed by molag) who worships azura (who offers sanctuary to those afflicted) would go to azura)
(a thief who worships nocturna, but also wields mehrunes razor, would go to nocturna, as she is the Ur-Daedra).

of course, the hero of kvatch ends up becoming sheogorath, so thats where his soul went. he's sheo now.

as for sheo in more totality: its not that he's possibly sane. he's not, but also is, sane.
while his domain is madness, having a domain doesnt make you that domain. you just exemplify it, and can grant it. Peryite isnt always disease stricken, and can infact provide relief from the pains of illness.

sheo also has the rather unique situation of being... not sheogorath.

originally, jyggalag was the daedric prince of order, and absoluteness. his domain was spreading towards other daedric realms, and so, all the other daedra banded together, and cursed him with ultimate madness, creating sheogorath.

at the end of each era, as the narrative begins to reach a climax, jyggalag can try break free, requiring sheogorath to find a new person to mantle him, since so long as sheo exist, jyggalag cannot.

sheo would become jyggalag, and a new sheogorath would be able to match him, beat him, and things become normal once more.
(though in skyrim, jyggalag does attempt to break free by creating a new era event in the saints/seducer DLC)

so sheo once was the most lucid and sane daedra alive, but wound up cursed with insanity. at the end of each era, he becomes absolute order once more, and is put down by sheogorath.

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u/Lyra_the_Star_Jockey 7h ago

Then why hire writers.

I always find it fascinating when these gigantic games with dozens of writers always devolve down into the most basic tropes and quests imaginable. What did all these writers do...?

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u/_trouble_every_day_ 9h ago

It’s a lazy uninteresting way to make the plot happen.

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u/Altruistic-Ad-408 9h ago

This is a lazy and uninteresting observation of tropes. It can be lazy, it can be very interesting, how do popular books like Dune or Wheel of Time work nearly as well without the chosen one trope?