Regrets And Perspectives

[u/Timbucktwo1230]

[u/Time-Weekend-8611]

She makes it sound like its her husband's fault.

[u/Accomplished_Self939 → u/Time-Weekend-8611]

It is the husband’s fault that her sacrifice was invisible to him.

[u/Time-Weekend-8611 → u/Accomplished_Self939]

Her husband was literally bringing in the income for the entire family. She certainly didn't seem to appreciate that.

[u/what-fresh-hells → u/Time-Weekend-8611]

You think someone sacrificing their own career dreams, birthing your children, and caring for your home so that you can focus on your career signals that they do not appreciate you or your career?

[u/Time-Weekend-8611 → u/what-fresh-hells]

birthing your children, and caring for your home

Interesting choice of words. Weren't they her children? Wasn't it her home?

Her husband brought home the bacon for twenty years and never expected any special kind of gratitude because he accepted those responsibilities according to their mutually agreed upon division of labor.

He wasn't the one crying about how he was forced to work a job because his wife stay at home status made it impossible to quit.

If the wife wanted to return to the workforce she could have done so at any time. She didn't have to carry three children to term. She didn't have to be a stay at home mom. Nobody was holding a gun to her head.

[u/what-fresh-hells → u/Time-Weekend-8611]

It's almost like you didn't read the post or perhaps you are simply entirely unable to put yourself in the perspective of this woman.

Your rebuttal once again fails to hear her actual argument, to acknowledge her sacrifice and contribution, and ignores entirely that the way their family system was organized did not support her goals or autonomy. It was never as simple as if she wanted to, she could have. She didn't because she allowed him to, and he never made supporting her doing so a priority. THAT is what she is communicating to her daughter. For young women not to fall into the trap of sacrificing your goals, needs, and wants for someone else, who has not demonstrated a willingness to also prioritize yours.

[u/Time-Weekend-8611 → u/what-fresh-hells]

and ignores entirely that the way their family system was organized did not support her goals or autonomy

Is there a reason she couldn't bring that up to her husband instead of passive aggressively blaming him for her not having a carreer?

Is there a reason why she couldn't have said to her husband "Hey, let's put a pause on kids because I really want to go to nursing school?"

Is there a reason why she couldn't have said, "Hey, I'd really like you to take some of the responsibilities around the house so that we can both work on a career."

But she didn't. She said nothing for twenty years while stewing inside and expected him toread her mind without her having to open her mouth.

For young women not to fall into the trap of sacrificing your goals, needs, and wants for someone else, who has not demonstrated a willingness to also prioritize yours.

Oh my god, stop infantilizing women.

She could have just opened her mouth at any point and had a frank discussion with her husband about kids and finances. But she didn't. She stewed for twenty years and blamed him for not reading her mind.

[u/what-fresh-hells → u/Time-Weekend-8611]

I'm pretty sure the indication is that she did bring it up. He says he thought it was just complaints. So again, at no point did her needs and goals become a priority to him enough that he was willing to sacrifice his own desires or to rearrange his life in any way. He, and you, want the entire responsibility of making their life work and getting her needs met to be hers alone. That is not how partnership is supposed to work.

[u/Time-Weekend-8611 → u/what-fresh-hells]

He says he thought it was just complaints

Did she say, "I want to go back to nursing school"?

Did she say, "Let's put a pause on kids so that we can both have careers?"

Or did she say some passive aggressive crap?

[u/what-fresh-hells → u/Time-Weekend-8611]

So from this single recap of this single conversation, you think we are to assume that throughout the entirety of their marriage all of her attempts to communicate were merely passive aggressive crap, and the husband could not possible bare some responsibility? Are you truly not able to see your bias? Are you truly not able to consider her perspective? Can you, for a single moment, put yourself in her shoes and understand why she might be upset and why she may want to see a different outcome for her daughter?

[u/Time-Weekend-8611 → u/what-fresh-hells]

Are you not capable of comprehending the simple fact that at any point in time she could have opened her mouths and said "Let's put a hold on more kids because I want to go back to nursing school?"

His wife tries to gaslight him by saying "You just made sure that saying yes would destroy the entire system." How did he do that? By holding up his end of their agreed dynamic?

Who decided what the system was? Was she not there when they mutually agreed on the "system"? Didn't the husband hold up his end?

You expect him to read her mind?

And then she gaslights him further saying, "That sacrifice still came with promotions raises and a retirement account" as if they just fell in his lap instead of him working for them.

[u/what-fresh-hells → u/Time-Weekend-8611]

You are assuming and infering far more than can reasonably inferred or assumed from this post. You've made it clear that you are unwilling to consider my points and have now crossed into disrespectful, so we're done here.

Also none of this is gaslighting. Don't weaponize therapy terms you don't actually understand.

[u/Time-Weekend-8611 → u/what-fresh-hells]

and have now crossed into disrespectful, so we're done here.

I used the exact same tone in my reply to you that you used in your reply to me.

So if that seems "disrespectful" to you then try taking a closer look at your own tone here.

The fact that you think that you should be allowed to dish it out but not expected to take it explains your entire point of view in a nutshell.

[u/Destithen → u/what-fresh-hells]

So from this single recap of this single conversation, you think we are to assume that throughout the entirety of their marriage all of her attempts to communicate were merely passive aggressive crap, and the husband could not possible bare some responsibility?

So from this single recap of this single conversation, you think we are to assume that throughout the entirety of their marriage all of her attempts to communicate were clear and easily understood, and the husband could not possibly have misunderstood her unless he didn't care or wasn't willing to change course to accommodate making his wife happy?

Lol, they blocked me.

[u/stickyfantastic → u/what-fresh-hells]

"allowed him to"??? He didn't have a choice either. Huh??

[u/Destithen → u/what-fresh-hells]

It's almost like you didn't read the post

Or we did and came to a different conclusion than you. This definitely ain't a black and white topic, and there's probably a million things people could point out that both the man and the woman could have done differently.

[u/Street_Estate2342 → u/what-fresh-hells]

Apparently not, because they literally called doing that a mistake.

[u/what-fresh-hells → u/Street_Estate2342]

She called sacrificing her dreams for his at a time when she could have chosen herself a mistake. It does not follow that she then believes every subsequent decision to have been a mistake or that she cannot appreciate his work or contributions to their family. She obviously does, given she literally enabled it with her sacrifices. She is encouraging her daughter to choose herself. She believes that her daughter can have love and a family AND her own dreams and goals. I dont think that idea is offensive.

[u/Street_Estate2342 → u/what-fresh-hells]

Emphasis on why blaming the husband alone is unreasonable

It takes two people to have what happens here happen. It is unreasonable how she blames her husband alone.

In the third slide she says “you just made sure saying yes would destroy the entire system” that can’t be concluded based on the post’s information. The system could have been restructured to enable her to go to school, but she didn’t work with him and say “yes”.

Genderswapped example that still fits gender-norms

This is the gender swapped equivalent of a man-and-woman relationship where the man tries to saddle a massive bill on the woman that is equivalent to all of the things said man has bought for said woman (flowers, dinners, etc.)

The man still bought said items, literally enabled it with his time, effort, and money, but it makes it very obvious that he doesn’t value it.

The woman is doing the same thing here. Yes, she isn’t outright saying it, but it’s very obvious that she is saddling all the blame onto him for a two-person decision.

[u/what-fresh-hells → u/Street_Estate2342]

I think what she blames him for is that she ended up being the only one making sacrifices. Her goals and dreams never became a priority because their family system became organized around his goals. And at no point did he say hey, it's your turn. What do you want and how can I support you? That is why she is resentful.

Many young women are socialized to prioritize the needs of others over their own. They are taught that that is what it means to cooperate. Young men are unfortunately not socialized the same way. It probably never occurred to the husband that he needed to at some point actively do something in support of his wife's dreams, specifically because of the inertia that happens when a system is designed that works well enough for his own needs.

Husband felt like everything was fine. He wasn't sacrificing and he was getting everything he wanted. He was blind to his wife's sacrifice and unhappiness. That is precisely why she felt the need to warn her daughter.

It feels like one small sacrifice now. It can easily lead to a lifetime of small invisible sacrifices that leave you wondering how you ended up living your life for someone else, specifically for someone else who doesnt even recognize that he asked you to and passively let you at every turn.

[u/Street_Estate2342 → u/what-fresh-hells]

Ultimately, we are the bearer of our own futures. It is absurd to saddle this solely on him.

It’s not a bad story, and how to collectively work towards each others’ dreams in a fair way is extremely valuable in relationships.

A good example of something that is very unfair from the post is that, on the ninth slide, the wife noted that only the husband has a retirement account. That is very bad. There should be a different retirement account for both of them. That example, and that rhetoric overall, is a good thing that men and women can take from this story.

However, acting like this is solely the man’s responsibility, and claiming that the man having a career makes his sacrifice of the time with his kids “less valuable” than the woman’s sacrifice of her career is very very very bad.

Idk, I would not be able to move past this. This would kill my feelings for someone. Edit: actually on further thought I could. Actions speak louder than words. It would call for some big conversations though.

[u/what-fresh-hells → u/Street_Estate2342]

Hearing that your wife is deeply hurt by the choices you've made would kill your feelings for her? That's unfortunate, and could easily explain why many women wouldn't communicate this kind of hurt and regret. Why they might suffer silently, raise their kids, then the divorce "comes out of nowhere."

In a partnership, decisions should be made together. The burden of sacrifice should be shared. And yes, you should feel some responsibility for doing the work of making your partner happy.

He knew she wanted to go to nursing school. He knew it kept getting put off. He knew it was easier and more convenient for him to keep moving forward with the system they had worked out than it would be to sacrifice and reorganize so that her goals could be the priority. She resents him that he was not willing to do what she had done for him.

He never made her dreams his priority. Hearing that probably hurt. But the healthy response to this, once you regulate the initial anger, is investigation. Ask questions. Try to figure out a solution. What does she need from you? That is what love is. It is not meant to only flow toward you. It is something you must actively do toward your partner as well. Even when their feelings and what they need from you make you feel bad. That discomfort is not reason enough to dismiss your partners feelings.

[u/Street_Estate2342 → u/what-fresh-hells]

Hearing that your wife is deeply hurt by the choices you've made would kill your feelings for her? That's unfortunate, and could easily explain why many women wouldn't communicate this kind of hurt and regret. Why they might suffer silently, raise their kids, then the divorce "comes out of nowhere."

The hurt does not come from the choices I made, but being blindsided by stacking resentment that wasn't communicated. To be more precise:

It's not the choices I made. It would be the choices we made. It's a mistake between both parties and one party's inability to accept responsibility is a damning problem. Those that suffer silently for this suffer by their own hand. Again: we are the bearer of our own futures. It is absurd to saddle this solely on him. The divorce was an inevitable consequence of a failure to communicate, from both parties. Hopefully you will do better in your own relationships like I now have the opportunity to, hence the benefit of this post.

In a partnership, decisions should be made together. The burden of sacrifice should be shared. And yes, you should feel some responsibility for doing the work of making your partner happy.

We agree, yes.

He knew she wanted to go to nursing school. He knew it kept getting put off. He knew it was easier and more convenient for him to keep moving forward with the system they had worked out than it would be to sacrifice and reorganize so that her goals could be the priority. She resents him that he was not willing to do what she had done for him.

Again, this is way too much blame on him. The only slide that indicates she communicated says "she said she had been saying it in smaller ways for years. I only heard complaints about schedules and laundry." If you don't change it you choose it. She made small attempts, and didn't change it, so she chose it. Just like the husband saw the nursing school kept getting put off, and didn't change it, so he too chose it. They are both to blame for this.

He never made her dreams his priority. Hearing that probably hurt. But the healthy response to this, once you regulate the initial anger, is investigation. Ask questions. Try to figure out a solution. What does she need from you? That is what love is. It is not meant to only flow toward you. It is something you must actively do toward your partner as well. Even when their feelings and what they need from you make you feel bad. That discomfort is not reason enough to dismiss your partners feelings.

Neither did she. She never made HER dreams HER priority. You can't blame the husband for something that she couldn't even do herself.

[u/what-fresh-hells → u/Street_Estate2342]

This conversation wasn't actually asking him for anything. In fact the conversation was not even with him. It's a mother sharing her experience with her daughter and the husband having feelings about it.

Making her dreams a priority is not something she could have done alone. That is literally the point. Her sacrifice was built into their family system. Going after her dreams would have required changing that system. From the post, we see that she did raise the issue multiple times. He dismissed it as mere complaints. He did not have the will required to work with her to make the pursuit of her career possible.

If something requires the active participation of both partners, and one partner is content to never say yes this is important im ready to help you, yes, the other partner is likely to become resentful.

She wanted and needed him to demonstrate that he saw her goals as equally important and worthy of effort. He did not do that. And she is warning her daughter to not create a similar pattern in her own life.

[u/Street_Estate2342 → u/what-fresh-hells]

Making her dreams a priority is not something she could have done alone. That is literally the point.

It's not something he can do alone either. How are you asking people to see it from her perspective when, while reading his perspective, you can't even see it from his?

If something requires the active participation of both partners, and one partner is content to never say yes this is important I'm ready to help you, yes, the other partner is likely to become resentful.

If you can't fight for your own dreams with the person you are building your life with then there's no hope on that dream! This is insanity.

She wanted and needed him to demonstrate that he saw her goals as equally important and worthy of effort.

She doesn't even see her goals as equally important and worthy of effort!

 she is warning her daughter to not create a similar pattern in her own life.

While a noble cause, she is doing so by blaming her husband for it. If she does not take equal responsibility in her dreams not coming to fruition, then she is making a damning error.

[u/StreetCollar2708 → u/what-fresh-hells]

He wasnt sacrificing? You ever have to take care of someone else? Now multiply that by 5. Either dude was incredibly lucky. Or he spent a massive amount of time at work. Maybe he liked it, but he did say tat he sacrificed time with his children, and that was brushed off like it was nothing. I don't think you realize how much time he actually had to give up to provide for 5 people. Time for hobbies, time for his children, time for anything else besides work. She's not the only one to have made sacrifices, but to belittle his life they were nothing? That's absurd.

[u/what-fresh-hells → u/StreetCollar2708]

I never said he didnt work hard. What I said was, in a conversation about sacrificing ones dreams and goals, she sacrificed hers in order to support his. At no point did he make the effort to do the same for her. Their family became organized around her continued sacrifice of hers, and his continued focus on his. She is advising her daughter not to make the same mistake. To focus on her own dreams while she can, and to perhaps pursue the kind of partnership where sacrifice is more evenly distributed or avoided, rather than treated as necessarily hers to bare.

[u/StreetCollar2708 → u/what-fresh-hells]

Where did it say she sacrificed her dreams for his? They simply said she sacrificed her dreams because she got pregnant. You're adding stuff to the story that isn't there. She just regrets having had kids and not being able to pursue a career

[u/what-fresh-hells → u/StreetCollar2708]

The entire conversation is about how she sacrificed her goal of becoming a nurse. That is the issue at hand. I am not adding that. It is the central conflict.

Yes. She got pregnant. Something they did together. The pregnancy could have been met with any number of solutions. The solution they chose is the one in which her dreams were put on hold and she became the primary caregiver. And that same pattern repeated throughout their lives together. The mother is letting her daughter know how easily and how quickly sacrificing your dreams for someone else can become part of the machinery of your relationship, and she is advising her not to make the same mistake.

[u/StreetCollar2708 → u/what-fresh-hells]

You are adding to it though. Here you said the conversation was about her sacrificing her dreams of becoming a nurse. Above you say she was sacrificing her dreams ( of becoming a nurse) to support his. Whatever his are, since they're not mentioned. That is definitely adding to it. So again, she regrets having kids because she had to put her dreams on hold for them.

[u/stickyfantastic → u/what-fresh-hells]

You're assuming "focus on your career" is only a positive thing. 

Also it sounds like she didn't choose a man over school, she chose a child over school lol