r/HonestHotTakes • u/Prestigious-Pie1421 • 8h ago
hot take, harshly criticise me for it! If dating roles were reversed, women would fail terribly
Now, I know I’ll get downvoted, called an incel, misogynist, gay (which is funny, considering how people still use it as an insult while at the same time insisting they’re not homophobic at all), etc. And I’m telling you upfront: I won’t even react to it. If you have a different perspective and are capable of discussing it without resorting to low blows, then you’re welcome to share it.
I don’t really believe women owe me anything, I don’t want to take anyone’s rights away, and I’m not defending violence or anything like that. When it comes to dating, I don’t think it’s all about looks (even though they obviously play a big role), but honestly, when most women—especially online—talk about how you have to be an interesting, funny, intelligent person, I find it incredibly hypocritical. I think that most of them, if the roles were reversed and they had to be witty, funny, charismatic, and interesting personalities themselves, would struggle terribly. And, quite ironically, their reactions would probably be very similar to those of incels—especially the ones they are most critical.
Or has any woman who complains about how men only want sex from her ever thought about whether, perhaps, having a more interesting personality might make men more interested in something beyond her body? I honestly doubt it.
Women complaining about how the “patriarchy” and their bad experiences with men have forced them to behave badly is also quite... something.
That doesn’t, of course, mean there aren’t great or interesting women. But in general, I think many women simply aren’t as interesting as they believe they are to actually pull someone just with their personalities (despite always talking about it), and I’m sure they wouldn’t show any more introspection or self-reflection than many incels do. I even consider it funny how similar many complaints of incels and women sounds like.
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u/derby2114 8h ago
I could see your point until the part about if being more interesting if women want to be viewed as something beyond a body. That’s pretty gross, no one should have to be up to your level of interesting to be viewed as more than just holes. You can find someone boring etc while still viewing them as a human being and not just a body to fuck.
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u/your_wolf_mother 8h ago
If you don’t find women interesting or funny, leave them alone.
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u/Ok_Bell_5304 8h ago
And the crazy part is he’s not even considering lesbian relationships… lol and those r literally the most romantic relationships I’ve ever seen in my entire life.
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u/Icy-Criticism-9722 8h ago
Nah imma keep bothering and pestering them irl. I find some of them attractive.
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u/thaliathraben 8h ago
If you're having a hard time finding interesting women that might have something to do with where and how you're looking.
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u/Lingonberry_Born 8h ago
It’s more that like attracts like, with that drivel of a post nobody interesting would want to engage with that.
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u/alwrit 4h ago
Most people, men and women, are utterly average and not that interesting. Period.
It's just that because of the flood of options most women have on dating apps they can afford to demand men be interesting while not being interesting themselves. It's that simple.
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u/ceraunophiliacc 2h ago
If I have a barrel full of apples but most are going bad, you could say I have a lot of options, but in reality I wouldn't consider the ones going bad as options at all. (Apples going bad is meant to represent incompatibilities;in this case).
If most men and women are average and boring, that contradicts the statement that women can demand men be more interesting. If that were true and it actually worked, women would currently find a wider variety of men interesting.
Women's standards are not a power they have, they are simply exercising their right to choose based on their own criteria, just like men have that right.
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u/ritz1148 8h ago
Someone spends too much time on the internet and not in public
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u/Gerudo_Valley64 8h ago
yeah, online is actually way different than IRL, I am 5'6 and I have no problem talking to women or women liking me, so idk why everyone thinks height matters or anything of that nature, online discourse will do that to you I guess.
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u/ambivalent_moon 8h ago
My husband is 5’7 and I ask him sometimes about dating because I see the discourse on here and he says he never had any trouble…he says ‘that’s why I picked a short one!’ Lolol
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u/Gerudo_Valley64 8h ago
yeah not every woman wants someone who is 6 ft lol, men and women arent a monolith, everyone has preferences.
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u/Frosty-Damage-242 7h ago
Exactly. I got my snoot full of tall men when I was a younger woman, most of them are big buffoons that have egos the size of Jupiter. lol
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u/OkSky3150 8h ago
I think when women get so so so many matches they filter even more. It is not hate of short dudes, it is just mild preference towards taller ones
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u/Advanced_End1012 8h ago
Everything gets pushed to the extreme and people takes the sensationalisation as absolute fact, the internet warps peoples worldviews. Yes there may be a preference for height amongst women, but it’s not some law women follow there’s way less women who don’t give a fuck about it than not.
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u/realityseekr 8h ago
Right my brother is 5'6 as well and literally has never had trouble at all getting women. I think the longest he was ever single was 1 year. Every other time he is single for about 5 mins before he has a new gf.
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u/Frosty-Damage-242 7h ago
I know a lot of people who prefer shorter men, myself included. Not to mention women a lot of times prefer men who have a few pounds and don’t feel like a brick wall. All these influencers are destroying people’s sense of reality.
I think a lot of men posting about shitty women are men who only seek out pick me girls who are visually hot and have major sex appeal. If you’re looking for a nice girl who has a personality outside of her looks, chances are she’s not going to have 90 percent of her breasts exposed, designer clothing and a butt the size of Texas. Plus I think porn, social media,etc has really tainted peoples understanding of normal. Women don’t look like that. Maybe there are a few here and there but half of it is ai, the other half are heavily filtered and edited photos. It is almost impossible to be a 10/10 woman, perfect body, perfect skin, perfect makeup and still work full time, pay bills, live a normal life. Most people who do look that good spend thousands of dollars on themselves every month. Most of the men complaining about woman couldn’t afford to pay for her hair appointment. And even if they could, then they’d cry around about how high maintenance she is. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. All of this is insanity.
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u/BigCelebration13 8h ago
Hell I'm not much taller than you (5'8") and I married a woman that's 5'11". Nobody cares outside a few weirdos on dating profiles.
The whole discourse is mostly incel/Manosphere losers trying to make money by ruining other men's lives.
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u/Maffingo 8h ago
It really does feel like there are two completely different worlds. Reality feels so much different than half the shit people complain about in this damn hellscape we call the internet
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u/HappyGiraffe 8h ago
Some people are boring; some people are riveting. Genitals rarely come into play.
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u/SpaceCowboy34 8h ago
Idk who hasn’t been riveted by genitals every now and then
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u/Seymourg3 6h ago
Oh, they absolutely do. A woman can be extremely boring and still have abundance. Not the case for men. There’s more of an incentive for men to develop their charm and charisma.
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u/cuttin_in_town 8h ago
I was somewhat with you at first but then you went wayyyyyy left with that “Maybe dudes would care more about women beyond their bodies if they had personality”.
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u/Short-Sound-4190 5h ago
With this type of drivel, every accusation is a confession: OP has minimal personality to speak of and so in order to protect his ego from rejection from women he is interested in he dehumanizes them (or: thanks to the manosphere trying to sell him on perception of rejection/hopelessness so he stays insecure enough to keep engaging with it, now desperate for community plus the fear of interospection and potential ego-discomfort).
It's a shame, honestly. But if OP grows up enough to spot the grift, gets some better quality more mature male and female friendships and aquatintences, and learns to let go of the fear and fragility that is making him insist that half the human population isn't equally human, he could have a shot at both happiness and companionship/a contented life
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u/Objective_Water_5235 8h ago
If you don’t find women interesting then maybe you’re not attracted to women? Or maybe women aren’t attracted to you? As a woman who has dated women, and has been friends with lots of them too, I’ve never had this problem. If someone, any gender, is dry with me - I just assume they’re not feeling me and move on. Or vice versa.
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u/RowAdministrative264 8h ago
Just say you have no game, it's fine.
Sincerely,
A woman with no game
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u/gringitapo 7h ago
It’s funny bc there are certain guys who are a little creepy and don’t take hints, and I get so flat when those guys are around to try to bore them and make them want to stay away from me on their own. I wonder if this guy keeps encountering that…
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u/DoubleEffect1758 3h ago
no i’m sure he has game. for some reason some woman (a small amt) are attracted to toxic men why? idfk
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u/shehasamazinghair 8h ago
It feels as though this whole subreddit is being used as a vehicle for people, mostly men, to foment hatred between men and women.
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u/LightBelowTheSnow 8h ago
Everyone is interesting to someone. Whether their interests, personality, humor, and way of interacting are interesting to you is part of what finding compatibility is all about.
And yes, believe it or not, women already have to be interesting to their prospective partners. If someone is physically attracted to a woman but doesn't enjoy talking to her, spending time with her, or sharing interests with her, he may hit it and quit it, or just quit it. If they enjoy one another as people and are compatible, there's considerably more potential for a relationship.
That's just the basics of dating. No role reversal required.
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u/Mysterious-Bonus-228 8h ago
it’s funny because as a woman i usually find that other women are extremely interesting.
im sure your only interaction with women is on dating apps or with OF models and AI bots. you won’t find woman interesting because they don’t want to talk to you.
here’s some interesting things my friends did :
one of my friends discovered a new type of fugus.
another friend is the ceo of her own company and she loves to scuba dive.
another friend has the usual 9-5 and she runs a non profit that helps animals.
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u/GetBent616 8h ago
What kind of women are you meeting? Mannequins? And, have you seen the list of requirements women must meet for a lot of men while dating? This argument absolutely goes both ways. Its not just "boring women bad". Women have to be hot, funny, cute, act like virgin's but be a demon in the sack at the drop of a hat, dress appropriately but not too prudish, show no skin but still be sexy, have a good job, contribute 50/50, be willing to act like his mother while also still be rearing to fuck him (ew, who wants that), cook, clean, do laundry, put him first always, dont have an attitude over anything, dont get upset, dont cry because its "manipulative", i could go on and on. It goes both ways dude. Its not just men out here that are expected to be a certain way.
Also, being perceived as "boring" or "uninteresting" does not strip a person of their rights to date. Jesus. People are allowed to try and find a relstionship that works for them, no matter how boring they may seem to be. Theres a lot of fellas whos personality struggles with anything beyond football, beer and the boys. I think theyre pretty boring and 1 dimensional, but to someone else theyre super cool and exciting. Ive been on dates where the guy couldnt even hold a convo or answer questions about himself. And ive been on other dates where ive had a really fun time with the person. Its a huge spectrum and saying that specifically women are boring or not interesting enough is a massive leap.
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u/Frosty-Damage-242 8h ago
This right here. I’d say men are the less interesting bunch if we’re comparing. Literally as long as he has a bacon burger, empty ballsack and a beer his brain goes blank and he just hangs out like washing on the line. Lol
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u/amethystrosegold 7h ago
Women are literally told by men to commit ourselves to any man who is nice to us, doesn’t beat us, has gainful employment, and isn’t a criminal.
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u/Authochi 8h ago
In nature, the one who risks the most in pregnancy picks the mate. It makes sense. Why would the person with the upper hand be the one persuing? They can mate whenever they want. The one who can't breed themselves is obviously the one who needs to show they are worth almost dying for. It will never change. Society has to get over that.
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u/murderfrogger 7h ago
You sound exactly like my ex.
When I left, I took my salary with me and he threatened me for not paying his rent after I moved out.
We never married because he didn't want to, so I was free to just go. He even insisted on being the only one on the rental contract and couldn't afford the rent on his own. He made considerably less than me and I gladly payed the whole rent back then.
He still wrote me an angry message every time I got into a new relationship, and I see him ranting about women being bad at courtship and only good at looking pretty, on different forums.
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u/NoRoutine7945 8h ago
Gay man here. I think the dynamics you straights have are exhausting and frankly, humiliating for guys. I never understood you. If i were you i would refuse to play these games, no matter if i died alone.
Who knows how women would do if the roles were reversed. I think you are generalizing too much.
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u/akade19961 7h ago
You started your statement saying you agreed but then pronounced a conclusion close to the exact opposite of the prior one?
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u/OddDc-ed 8h ago
Theres a lot of boring uninteresting people of both genders, and being attractive physically helps remedy that problem for either gender.
I know plenty of very boring guys and very boring girls. Both sides struggle with dating due to it but I will say it is easier to at least get dates or laid for the boring girls because us guys don't have very high standards when it comes to that stuff lol.
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u/Flimsy_Fisherman1199 8h ago
Gender wars stuff is literally so boring. It’s for people who are chronically online.
Woman also love sex.. we are capable of only wanting that too. You seem to put both men and women into a box which is a bit odd to me.
I am convinced that if you’re normal and decent craic you’ll find a man/woman.
My husband is great, I’m good fun. It wasn’t hard to find each other.
Not many cool people I know are single forever.
No matter the gender.
Just don’t be a loser and you’ll be grand.
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u/theartistduring 8h ago
Way to tell on yourself as someone who doesn't view women as complete humans and only as sex objects. Men who actually do like women do look for personality, charisma, wit etc in the women they date.
You like sex. You don't like women.
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u/PompeyCheezus 8h ago
You think that because you need to get offline and date. Women and men are equally funny and charming and interesting (that is, we don't all have the same sense of humor, charm or interest).
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u/DetectiveCrafty5413 8h ago
Anybody who on ironically uses the word dating roles is probably too mentally ill to date. Seriously, they're not living in the same reality as the rest of us. It's like they think life is some kind of old movie where the man has to make all the moves and then there'll be some kind of post credit scene saying you lived happily ever after because the man won his prize. It's like get some mental health care already.
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u/mjolomtik 8h ago
I mean so would men? Imagine if men had to be elegant fashionable and beautiful starting tomorrow
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u/Forsaken_Dragonfly66 8h ago
I mean most people regardless of gender aren't that interesting or funny, tf?
You sound like you have no game and resent women. Just date men.
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u/crystal_wtch8 8h ago
Wasn’t going to call you gay but for sure an incel which is evident by your post. You’re probably some guy who can barely get a first date let alone a second.
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u/ElkSufficient2881 8h ago
I don’t consider women to not be failing at dating now, it’s constantly dangerous, no good options, etc
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u/ambivalent_moon 8h ago
From what I can gather, nobody on the dating market is having a great time rn lol
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u/smollwonder 8h ago
I always chuckle at men complaining about bad behavior from women, then turning around and complaining that women are rewarding assholes.
By this logic men are also rewarding assholes, they just happen to be women assholes.
Sounds like things are equal on that front.
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u/ParkingEmployee6454 8h ago
Yeah, since women apparently aren’t interesting enough, just date a guy. You’ll have so much to talk about then
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u/alex_northernpine 8h ago
I'm sorry, but don't girls also have to be charismatic and attractive? I'm pretty sure guys don't sleep with girls they don't like. And if you do, well, sorry, but you don't have to.
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u/Mammoth_Negotiation7 8h ago
Lots of guys sleep with girls they don't like. They just usually don't date them.
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u/VHDamien 8h ago
I'm pretty sure guys don't sleep with girls they don't like.
It happens.
I personally know 3 men who have children with women they never really liked simply because of access to sex. I know 1 woman who has kids with a man she didn't really like, but stayed due to poor self esteem.
Tragic all around.
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u/KitchenAd9088 8h ago
“Or has any woman who complains about how men only want sex from her ever thought about whether, perhaps, having a more interesting personality might make men more interested in something beyond her body? I honestly doubt it.”
Bless your heart…
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u/Excellent_Outside_71 8h ago
Ive never thought about that but its actually true 😭 men and women do this to eachother
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u/Fun_Camel_2188 8h ago
Women have the upper hand in the dating market. That’s just how it is. It’s not their fault, and it’s not ours either. We just have to accept it. Instead of wasting time complaining about it online, hit the gym, take care of yourself, and work on becoming a better version of yourself. You’ll have a much better chance of meeting a great woman that way.
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u/LeeBirdPGH 8h ago
I know a ton of really interesting, funny, kind, accomplished women in real life. It’s pretty rare to meet a truly boring woman! I think what’s actually happening here is that, by default, women do not feel comfortable around men (at least in the context of dating) so y’all think women are boring when most of us are actually being cautious and reserved.
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u/Few_Diet8637 8h ago
I don’t think women would struggle as much as you think. They tend to be more social than guys and most girls have a solid friend group, where many men either have no friends, 1-2 close friends, or a toxic friend group that doesn’t really support them, so their social skills suffer.
Late 20s M here.
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u/PlanktonEconomy6136 7h ago
i definitely disagree w you on this one, bub. men & women alike are fond of good personalities, i'm gonna go out on a limb here & say i've never met a guy that doesn't value personality (then again, i am a highschool student) not saying they don't exist bc they definitely do but a majority of ppl like pleasant personalities. also, if you can't find interesting women, maybe try looking somewhere else or, & this isn't meant to be taken in a mean way, be interesting & open minded yourself
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u/plastroncafe 7h ago
Today you learned that women can be just as uninteresting as men.
My hope is that tomorrow, you'll realize women are just people.
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u/MikeSpace 7h ago
My man you're telling on yourself, women definitely already do approach men they're interested in
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u/LaMadreDelCantante 7h ago
It's not our fault men are so focused on looks they'll overlook so much else lol. Plus we don't actually live our lives based on your standards anyway.
Define "behaving badly."
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u/kaykenstein 8h ago
That's a lot of words for "I think I'm a nice guy stop calling me a loser'
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u/Prestigious-Pie1421 7h ago
I´m not a nice guy and you can call me anything you want darling. Your game won´t improve because of it.
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u/fabulousautie 8h ago
Some men really don’t mind telling on themselves, do they? Openly admitting that you don’t care about a woman’s personality at all and it’s only about looks is an interesting choice, but you do you!
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u/Dddddd92 8h ago
So your take is "men fuck everything and women are way picker, if the roles were reversed the same cycle will continue because one party settles for anything the other is more selective"? Genius.
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u/GWeb1920 6h ago
Do you date women who aren’t funny charismatic and interesting?
I think you fail to realize that men at the standards that make women desirable and women set the standards that make men desirable.
So if men as a group desired these things women would not fail terribly they would adjust to the new requirements of desirability.
(Though I tend to reject the idea of your thoughts on the attributes of women)
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u/ceraunophiliacc 6h ago
Exactly! Makes me wonder what OP and those agreeing with him actually want, for those women to lower their standards?
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u/Pangtudou 8h ago
There was absolutely no gender identifying role in any of the behaviors my husband and I had when we were dating. If the genders were reversed, it would have not mattered
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u/heysawbones 8h ago
I think the truth of this depends a lot on what you were born into. When I was a child, it would have been true. A lot of those people were shallow and boring, and it's difficult to imagine that's changed for most of them. As an adult, I've gone out into the world and found this to be less true.
I don't think you're necessarily wrong, but it's not a very good gotcha, despite the kind of responses you're getting. Women and girls are, by and large, socially indoctrinated to meet one set of expectations, and men and boys are indoctrinated to meet another. "Women would be boring and unfunny". Well, okay. Let's stop raising women to be boring and unfunny, then. Let's stop punishing girls for doing otherwise.
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u/Frosty-Damage-242 8h ago
The only ones spewing everything you’re talking about are influencers and other people online. Most women like myself couldn’t care less what others think and just look until we find a man that we’re happy with. I’m so sick of all the gender talk. There are shit men, shit women, shit humans in general. There are handicapped people, ignorant people, downright imbeciles, there are people who are kind of smart, there are fat people, there are skinny people, there are exceptionally beautiful people, there are homely people, some people are interesting, some are boring, some really smart. Racism exists. Inequality exists. Equality exists. Misogyny exists. Misangry exists. There are incels too. Hateful people and people who are kind. This world is full of everyone and everything. To say something doesn’t exist is stupid. Everything does in one sense or another. Women aren’t men, so it doesn’t really matter. Very few people care anymore. We’re out here busting our asses trying to pay the mortgage and keep the fridge full. Literally we’re all going to be dead within the next 70 years, who fucking cares. Go live your life and everyone else too. It literally doesn’t matter. If you don’t like women, go date a man or vise versa. Bye bye. 👋 😂
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u/luv_u_deerly 8h ago
I think it's perfectly reasonable for both men and women to want funny, charismatic and interesting partners. I'm not in the dating world (been married for a long time), but I wouldn't presume it was just the man that needed to earn my approval. I know it's a two way street and I also have to prove to be a person worth dating. Maybe not all women feel that way, but I have to believe many of them do realize that too.
I feel like I know plenty of women that are funny, witty and interesting. Not in the same way men typically are, but I wouldn't have so many girl friends if I didn't like them and find them interesting. But we all have different ideas of what equals interesting. You just might have a harder time finding someone YOU particular find interesting.
Honestly the dating world sounds exhausting now, like you're expected to put on a damn show or something. I'd prefer to find a partner I can relax with and just be myself around without having to feel like I need to entertain them, which luckily I have.
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u/Flicksterea 7h ago
You've no idea how women work, do you? You think we don't have to be charming and witty and funny and intelligent and beautiful in dating... Touch grass.
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u/SpecialistExam6944 7h ago
I think this is confirmation bias. In reality, most people are boring or at the very least there isn’t anything that is particularly special about them that makes them stand out. Women are also socialized to be less outspoken and take up less space than men so that might be why you would come to that conclusion. But a lot of men are just as boring. I don’t think this is a woman centric thing. Also, there’s nothing inherent or biological in women that would make it so that they wouldn’t be able to fulfill that role if they needed to. If women were socialized into that behavior then that is what you would see.
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u/Squimpleton 6h ago
To be fair, most people are not that interesting. We’re not walking TV scripts. But eventually you find one that’s interesting to you.
Also yes there are many things that would be challenging for women if the dating expectations were reversed - though the one you pointed out wouldn’t be one of them. I think the most major one is that if a sudden role reversal happened, most women (myself included) would be too shy/passive/self-conscious to ask men out. I gotta give it to men, the idea of asking a bunch of people out only to get rejected sounds terrifying.
So glad I fell in love with my first real boyfriend and been happily married.
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u/Loreistorian 6h ago
So I am an autistic woman who, because I prefer direct communication, has often made the first move when it comes to dating.
I also like to think I have a pretty decent personality/set of hobbies and interest. I craft. I make art. I love video games. I like some outdoorsy activities. I'm well-educated, employed, and self sufficient. I put in effort into how I dressed and looked on dates. I paid my own half of the bill almost every time. Hell, almost every date I've ever been on has lasted 3+ hours, because me and the guy spent so long just talking and laughing with each other.
And you wanna know how 90% of those ended up? With that man, who had initially led me to believe he was seeking a longterm relationship, telling me he actually just wanted casual sex with me. Nothing more.
So, I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with your bullshit, thinly veiled insults insinuating women are shallow beings.
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u/fivebynine5x9 6h ago
Every person is interesting under the right conditions of having a real connection with the other person and being comfortable enough and interested enough to open up and truly be themselves. Every single person has a rich inner life. Every single person has an infinite amount of thoughts and feelings and dreams and woes that are arranged in a completely unique configuration due to their unique set of life circumstances. When we perceive a person to be uninteresting, it's not because that person is uninteresting. It's because the connection is not there that would bring out the parts of them that are interesting. If you perceive most women you've encountered to be uninteresting, it's because they consciously or unconsciously chose not to open up enough to be memorable or interesting to you.
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u/Equivalent-Grade-142 4h ago
Always the problem with these posts is assuming very shallow and traditional roles.
Look for people outside this mold and think outside this mold yourself. You’ll be happier.
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u/Bubbly_Clothes3406 8h ago
As someone who has dated and slept with both cis men, cis women, trans men, and trans women, I think you’re just a loser.
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u/TheSpacePopinjay 8h ago
Reminds me of a TV show where a bunch of women were asked what they'd do if they were turned into a man for a day and one of them answered that they'd go out into town and have sex with a woman (as a man).
And I was thinking, no, no you wouldn't.
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u/erenjackson 8h ago
I don’t think women will do mass shooting over rejection though. Women have been subservient their whole life. They most likely accepted it
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u/Optimal-Pay-2555 8h ago
lol this post is wild. I wouldn’t say this is a hot take it’s just cringe af
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u/No-Obligation2563 8h ago edited 8h ago
Here’s some of my experiences as a guy and you guys can tell me how this would have worked out if the genders were reversed:
Story 1: Had a girl over late at night who I had never met before and after sitting around watching tv for a while she gets touchy and eventually starts grabbing my junk. I was pretty tired and didn’t really know her that well obviously so I said I didn’t feel like doing anything. She took it as a joke and kept going. Eventually she started pulling my pants off and trying to suck it and I said again I don’t feel like doing anything. Now she gets mad and thinks there’s something wrong with me and suddenly I’m on the defensive side here as if I’m the one who did something wrong lmao.
Story 2: Girl comes over late at night and I know it’s probably a booty call but I’m down for it. We sit on the couch as she watches me play video games for a bit and then eventually she turns her head around and says “Is that your room over there?” And that’s the extent of her flirting. She’s lucky she was going after a horny guy and not a woman who wants to be impressed lmao.
So in my own subjective experience I would probably say that straight women don’t really have any game. And they don’t have to. They’re dealing with men who usually are down for sex and are just waiting for a green light. I would love to see a woman become an average straight man for 6 months and then go into the dating scene and then come back and tell me how it went.
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u/Yomi_Lemon_Dragon 7h ago
If any average man or woman got gender-swapped for 6 months they'd probably think it was great. Men would love the attention, women would love not getting catcalled and objectified. Living that way your whole entire life is what changes your outlook (although, if you didn't like a woman getting mad at you for not being in the mood, you uh. Probably wouldn't like being a woman in that position much better).
I agree that what happened both those times sucked, though. The reason they acted that way is because women have been taught since time immemorial that all men are sex-hungry animals that want sex all the time. And because all men want sex all the time, if a man claims he doesn't want to have sex with you it must be a personal attack because men aren't capable of just not being in the mood. But there's really NO excuse for any woman to still believe this, especially if they give a shit about consent. That garbage needs to die with all the other "men want this in a woman", "women want this in a man" shite driving a wedge between us since the dawn of time.
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u/HeartonSleeve1989 8h ago
It would require that they approach, and they couldn't handle the rejection.
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u/Bubbly_Clothes3406 8h ago
Suuuuure thing. Women face rejection on a regular basis, in work, in school, and in life, and take it just fine compared to men who will go on killing sprees because a girl in highschool let them down easy.
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u/No-Topic-7481 8h ago
I've started to notice how much toxic masculinity is explicitly requested in women's dating profiles.
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u/Nectarine143 8h ago
I mean, Bumble got rid of the "women message first" schtick because of the complaints it was too hard so...
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u/zizillama 3h ago
Okay so you’re saying women complain about being reduced to their looks, but that could be fixed by having a better personality?
My question is, if the men in question are already prioritizing looks over personality, why would women’s personalities be the deciding factor in changing that?
And being desired sexually but not valued romantically doesn’t mean a woman lacks a personality.
Also, historically women have very much needed a personality. For most of human history, society’s ideal woman was one who was charming but not too flirtatious, intelligent but not intimidating, funny but not at men's expense, independent but not too independent, attractive but not vain, and nurturing and self-sacrificing without complaint. The ideal was to be interesting enough to attract a man but never so interesting that you threatened his authority or outshone him. Literally for much of human history, women lives depended on being able to exhibit those qualities.
I guess my last question is, do you think everyone finds the same things boring? Or annoying? Or interesting? Someone you find boring or even rude is probably someone else’s dream. You not liking their personality doesn’t mean they don’t have one 🤔
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u/KindestBlackTemplar 8h ago
Water is wet. Everyone acknowledges this outside your internet rabbit holes.
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u/lilittyb 8h ago
It’s clear you don’t know many women and probably aren’t close to women in real life if that’s your view of us. It’s like you don’t even know an “interesting” woman even though what is interesting is entirely subjective. And women show tons more introspection than men, from how we style ourselves to how we think progressively and are more emotionally and socially aware, which pretty sure has been spoken about in psychology many times. Men just do not try as hard, sorry.
Also acting like having the constant fear of rape and murder is just a minor inconvenience that we exaggerate to explain poor behaviour isn’t helping your case of not looking like an incel
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u/slimricc 8h ago
I think women tend to be way more charming and funny. They generally have self awareness while men generally do not.
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u/Heavy_Professional33 8h ago
ur gonna get lots of name calling. but your right. when bumble was around. women started conversations the same way that they say they hate starting convos. I got lots of “hey” “hiiiis”. then nothing. And yeah that may be just online. but if you think people dont take how they act online to how they act in real life. but if you believe the manosphere is dangerous (a mainly online phenomenon) then you can understand that something that is pervasive online seeps into the real world. where do u think these people go to eat, shop, socialize
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u/pale-gael_01 8h ago
I left bumble because of how excruciating it was to endure women starting conversations.
Most of the time I didn't even get actual messages but those stupid premade questions... I answer and try and open up the conversation by asking them a question back or bringing up stuff on thier profile.... and thier reply is ANOTHER premade question.
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u/Heavy_Professional33 8h ago
yeah being good at conversations is a skill. lots of people never learn or practice it. its funny because bumble had to change how women always messaged first. because they wouldnt do it😭. then it just became worse tinder
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u/pale-gael_01 8h ago
I laughed when I heard about that change.
If you ever used it you knew it was only a matter of time before thar happened because they'd be losing to much revenue otherwise.
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u/Heavy_Professional33 7h ago
expected honestly. women complain so much about the other gender. but when alot of them are put in our shoes. those very same women act the same way
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u/pale-gael_01 7h ago
Rejection is a fear shared by all humans.
But I do believe women largely are more afraid of it and take it worse.
I'm not sure why, only good guess I have is that they simply experience it less and we don't teach girls in our countries how to deal with it.
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u/Heavy_Professional33 7h ago
yeah when your told tour whole life that men are easy and approaching as a women should be easy. and then its not for you. its probably hard to handle. and like u said alot of women never get rejected as often or as cruelt as it happens to men.
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u/OvercookedBobaTea 7h ago
Men don’t like women with big personalities. Women often have to suppress themselves or become smaller in order to get and keep a man
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u/Natural-Apartment-51 7h ago
I think that may be a small man problem tho because anyone decent that I know personally at most has been vain for looks or they say she was boring and thats why it didn't work. I've never heard a man say she has too much personality, or something similar even in confidence. If personality comes up it's always about mental health honestly which isn't even the same issue.
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u/Prestigious-Pie1421 7h ago
You know, "pleasent" and "big" are not mutualy exclusive, but they are also not exactly a same thing.
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u/Severe_Information54 8h ago
Woman here,
I think guys should groom themsleves better and focus more on their looks.
It does a lot of heavy lifting.
You can use makeup to decently improve your looks and blend it in such a way to still looks masculine.
You can take better care of your skin and hair.
You can dress better.
These things are not gated from men.
I hope one day that male fashion will one day become as varried and wonderfull as what women get.
🦚#peacock men
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u/pale-gael_01 8h ago
I've been called gay by plenty of women because I like to dress smart 😅
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u/Prestigious-Pie1421 8h ago
Strange. Because here I was, being told like 100x it is all about personality and not looks. I´m confused.
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u/jake-n-elwood 7h ago
lol that’s obviously false. you’re just fanning the flames. women and men evaluate each other using the same yardstick - appearance.
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u/amethystrosegold 7h ago
Nobody told you that.
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u/Prestigious-Pie1421 7h ago
Find any random post across the internet, either from some incel or just "how to get a girl" type of post (or actually some gender war thing even) and there will be ton of comments in a way "it is just about your personality, women don´t care about looks and money. you just need to be funny etc" from basically every woman there so...
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u/changtheconqueror 8h ago
Yes, my god. I'm still waiting for the day they make a rash guard that's not gray, navy, or camo. The colorful alternatives look like they were designed by a 12 year old who discovered psychedelia for the first time.
Like, just do the kids designs but BIGGER.
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u/Suitable_Sample7550 7h ago
so many men are already fashionable groomed this isn’t the 1970s any major city majority of men are well groomed when they go out and styled even more then women in a lot of cases.
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u/asldf34 7h ago
Finally someone who’s honest about what it really is. APPEARANCE. Looks is almost everything.
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u/Minotaurotica 8h ago
do you mean if the roles had been reversed from the begining cus then I feel they would be pretty similar to now, if you mean things switched like overnight somehow maybe....
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u/StaceOdyssey 8h ago
And yet, the women I date are interesting and funny and self-reflective. WEIRD.
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u/UnusualPieceOfGum 8h ago
Is it safe to assume all the weird gender wars posts are just bots or chronically online kids at this point?
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u/Top-Fudge9791 8h ago
Yeah it's almost like these dating roles are actually based on human biology and evolution
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u/Possible_Cable3176 8h ago
Its a mixed bag but from my experience most are pretty boring. Again just for emphasis: from my experience. Even more recently there's a girl that loves to hear me talking but can't hold a conversation to save her life. She's cool to game with and stuff so we're friends still, but I could never date her. But i have plenty of other girl friends that are lots of fun to talk to, sadly they're all taken and their sisters are too young for me. But like I said, it's a mixed bag, everyone's results will vary.
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u/dinasour1004 8h ago
I was with you until the “or has any woman who complains about how men only want sex from her ever thought about…” part
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u/JesusDoesntLoveu 8h ago
Yeah there was a point in time when I would have agreed with you. I specifically remember, once upon a time, thinking how most women I encountered weren't that interesting. They didn't think about deep things, they didn't have hobbies, or notable talents, they didn't have interesting stories, they weren't all that funny, there really wasn't much more to them then their appearance and they didn't aspire to be much more then someone who stays home all the time, not even to take care of kids, just to not work and be taken care of.
Then after awhile I realized, it wasn't just the women who were like that. It was most of the men I encountered as well. I just didn't notice it as much because I wasn't analyzing every guy I came across for their potential to be a good partner to me. I had plenty of guy friends who were interesting and fun, so it didn't bother me that most the guys I ran into in the wild were boring, dumb, not funny, and very shallow surface level people with crap personalities. Most people just suck, and the more time that passes, the larger percentage of the populace sucks, and the more each one individually sucks.
It's just getting increasingly difficult to find someone with substance, who is fun to hang out with, is interesting and has a solid personality. Guy or girl, they're a dying breed. On top of that, those types of people tend not to go out and socialize with the duds, which makes them even harder to find.
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u/Kuchen_Fanatic 8h ago
The mem who have approached me so far and all but one of them only wanted sex have known me for at most 5 minutes bevore it became clear to me why they approached me in the first place.
I don't care if men think I have an interesting personality or not, I have a girlfriend for nearly 4 years so I'm interesting enough for another woman to want a lot more than sex, but I also don't think anybody can junge based on 5 min if someone elses personality is intresting or not.
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u/onemassive 8h ago
Research shows that women end up taking on extra work and responsibility in LTRs and men end up having less work. So it makes sense that women are more selective.
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u/Alternative_Plan_823 8h ago
Youre partially right, but if the roles were reversed, and men suddenly became the more pursued sex, and given time, they would also lose the impetus to become funny and interesting, and women would pick it up in order to remain competitive. I think this also happens to be the least sexist take.
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u/JelloMany9374 7h ago
I wonder if my good luck with men has been because I'm more of a personality person than a looks person?
I don't even think it's about being funny or interesting in general (for men and women). It's about being seen as funny or interesting to the opposite gender.
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u/Perfect-Orchid1998 7h ago
I think you don't have any game but are also saying if women had to be like you they'd have no game either as a sort of explanation into why you have no game.
Time to get your game up mate.
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u/SeaworthinessLow6676 7h ago
You can have a great personality and lots of interests but that doesn't guarantee a man will care about that
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u/The_Big_Mayonnaise 7h ago
Yes mysogyny and misandry sound the same. They come from positions of hate.
Fortunately despite the impression the Internet gives they are the exception.
As someone in my 50s with no small amount of success in dating. Pretty will get you laid, but it doesn't last. For a relationship to maintain (unless both parties are Zoolander level shallow) both need to have a personality.
Women due to social pressure to confirm likely will be slower to reveal that personality, but it is there.
Understand social norms have defined roles for centuries. We are in a period of flux. I am sure in 15 yrs or so the landscape will be unrecognizable to you. I know for me it has.
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u/Silver-Star92 7h ago
I get where you going with this but dating is a 2 person game. So women do run into problems with dating. And not being interesting with hobbies or whatever is a bit of personal take. I like to play D&D as a woman but there are plenty of men who won't want to date me because maybe the find D&D too silly. What you find interesting about other people is not interesting to others so perhaps the women you connect with are just not your type. It feels like sometimes people forget that others are different in their perspectives of life
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u/Mysterious_Rhubarb86 7h ago
I think the roles would have to be reversed all the way across the board for this comparison to work. If women simply became the ones doing the approaching while men retained their current preferences and dating behavior, I’m not convinced women would “fail terribly.”
Let’s be honest: there are men who will continue interacting with a woman primarily because they anticipate sex, even when they already know they don’t particularly like her or see a relationship with her. Some men will even stay in relationships with women they don’t seem to like because the companionship, sex, domestic benefits, etc. are preferable to being alone.
So if women suddenly became the pursuers, I suspect plenty of them could still get dates and sexual interest because physical attraction and sexual availability matter quite a bit to many men. The more significant rejection might come afterwards, when she discovers that the man was willing to date or sleep with her but doesn’t want the relationship she wanted.
But women already experience that. Which is why I don’t think simply switching who approaches whom demonstrates that women would suddenly discover they’re incapable of attracting men with their personalities. It may just change where in the process the rejection happens.
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u/YawningEntropy 7h ago
OP, wouldn't the easiest way to evaluate this be to ask bisexual trans men? This would be a group of people that at one point dated men as a person assigned female at birth but later transitioned and dated women while living as a man.
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u/phantomexit 7h ago
the idea behind what you’re saying isn’t necessarily straight-up incorrect, but it’s dripping with bitterness, which prevents most readers from actually thinking about what you’re saying seriously.
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u/EquinoxClock 7h ago
All the indignant answers in this thread don't even understand the point of the post. All the advice men get about how to get a date is, in practice, like an entire life coaching course. One, we are expected to be confident and fearless enough to make the first move in the first place, which is an extremely underestimated part of the process, as it takes an incredible amount of courage and psychological preparation unless you're someone who is naturally outgoing and fearless.
Then our personalities have to not only be interesting, entertaining and perfectly tuned so that it doesn't come across as weird in any way, but it also has to be the kind of personality that is externally visible. Someone with a more reserved personality, even if interesting, will have a much more difficult time getting girls to like him.
So many women speak of men's task as easy, "just be yourself", "just have a good personality", etc. Having a personality that can attract someone is not easy whatsoever, it's incredibly difficult and takes a ton of work. We can't expect to get our foot in the door through looks like women can, and we also can't count on women taking the initiative with us, so if we don't have outward confidence and personality that are easily visible, it is going to be incredibly more difficult. The OP's point is that if women had to navigate this task in order to get a date, they would be pretty bad at it too, especially considering that many would be coming into it with the attitude that it's easy and they can "just be themselves".
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u/bunnypaste 7h ago
Ever since I was little I've dreamed of being desired more for my internal characteristics or skills rather than my looks. Over and over again others choose me for the latter while showing zero curiosity at all about the former. It's almost like the things I believe give me value simply doesn't matter to most men. They're only looking at the transient things.
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u/HumanContract 6h ago
Wtf is this post? Women are taught to be quiet, sweet, kind, giving.. if you don't see that we have independent personalities, it's your fault.
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u/so-2000-and-late 5h ago
Idk, I hand picked nearly all my boyfriends. Skill issue, regardless of gender.
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u/horseonahighway 5h ago
It sounds to me like your point is anybody would fail under rigid gender roles, regardless of who they belong to. You don't have to follow them.
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u/First-Strawberry-398 5h ago
So you think women would struggle terribly to be interesting, funny, intelligent, and don’t see how that’s misogynist ?
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u/pink-grenade 5h ago
Are they boring? Or are they not interested in you?
I’ve met incredibly boring men, and men who I was cautious of since they had weird vibes. When I’ve gotten stuck in a conversation with them, I turn off my personality completely because I don’t want them to think I’m interested. All women are like this.
Or maybe you just don’t like women. I wager you don’t have women friends based on your rant. Maybe try getting to know women as people instead of just judging them through the context of dating.
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u/clo_cilli 5h ago
People are either compatible and click or they dont. Its that simple. If her personality isn't for you then move on and visa versa.
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u/wombatgeneral 5h ago
I sort of agree with the blaming the patriarchy thing. If women had equal representation/equal power it would solve some issues but having women in charge isn't going to solve everything.
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u/Inevitable-Island256 4h ago
As a bisexual women, when I’ve dated women it was not hard whatsoever to be better than the bare minimum man. Plan dates, remember her favorite things, deeper conversations and women tend to care more about the other in sexual aspects. Love both men and women though.
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u/External_Survey8400 4h ago
I have no idea what I would write to a man on Bumble... Wouldn't that depend on their profile?
I am clearly blessed because I know a lot of funny women who are intellectually curious and generally well rounded people.
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u/N0t_Baiting 34m ago
Women all have the same personality and I’ve not seen any evidence to prove this wrong
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u/SannyTrademark 8h ago
Actually if dating roles had always been reversed, then women would've had time to adapt to those gender roles as the norm. Your argument hinges on the idea that women cannot perform the same way men do, rather than that they are pressured into not performing the same roles men do by society.
If women approaching men had been the norm throughout history they would've been able to do it as well.