Why Cities Don't Build Basketball Courts

[u/flyinghippos101]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwvOICz-7EY

Great video from youtube planning channel About Here on potential obstacles to growing basketball in Canada.

TL;DR:

• The case for basketball: the game is growing, has a low barrier to entry and is space-efficient. This is in spite of a "curfew" where nets are taken down
• NIMBYs often lobby against basketball due to "noise," lower property values and worried that courts would attract crimes, drugs and 'disrespect to older people.' Studies debunk these issues while identifying the racism-coded language
• Most city parks were developed at the turn of the century and reflect design philosophies at the time to give open spaces to workers increasingly aggitated by poor work conditions, and "respectable sports" like tennis, horseshoe throwing so basketball missed the boat
• Some sports organizations and recreational players are very organized as a lobby, including soccer and pickleball
• There is poor organization of youth basketball compared to other sports to help promote lobbying for more accessible courts. This is because of how casual the game is at the rec level.
• Recommendation: fuck golf - build more courts for every single sport imaginable

I would also note that I made this post some time back on the politics of other sports vs basketball on this sub and so I'll make the same point here

Your communities are what you make of them, and even though it seems impenetrable, there ARE ways to expand your voice locally: Attend community meetings, send an email to your city representative, and most importantly VOTE for candidates that align with your values and what you want for your community.

https://www.reddit.com/r/torontoraptors/comments/wlb74v/public_basketball_courts_in_toronto_as_an_example/

[u/zetcetera]

Interesting to know. Here in Victoria, I was bewildered to find out that our large multi-sport park was undergoing renovations to add 11 pickleball courts but no basketball court

[u/LilSwampGod → u/zetcetera]

That feels racist somehow.

[u/unoriginal_name_42 → u/LilSwampGod]

It's definitely a good example of who gets listened to by government. Everything for old white people, nothing for anyone else

[u/e_before_i → u/unoriginal_name_42]

It's also a great example of who speaks to our government.

Which group has the highest voter turnout? Which group is disproportionately involved in politics? Which group turns up to city council meetings? When old people get crotchety, they call their local representatives about how the birds are too noisy.

Conversely, which group has the least political engagement? Who complains without voting?

(In defence of the young, old people have more time and knowledge so it's easier to be politically involved. Still, actions yield results)

[u/bcparrot → u/e_before_i]

Exactly. The lesson from the video should be to organize and speak up. Not to find things to complain about. 

[u/The_Lone_Fish17 → u/bcparrot]

And that this generation of old people doesn’t use their time and knowledge to speak up for young people and instead only cares for themselves.

[u/bcparrot → u/The_Lone_Fish17]

Likely true of most humans in all of history. 

[u/Independent-Spite139 → u/unoriginal_name_42]

Ironic since they're gonna die in 20 years and pickleball will die with them.

[u/links135 → u/LilSwampGod]

No, Canada like elsewhere revolves around the elderly.  Vancouver condos are expensive to build because of huge development fees meant to keep those elderly pickleball players living with cheap property taxes so their kids can pay it in shoeboxes.

[u/Rezrov_ → u/LilSwampGod]

It is racist.

Hillcrest in Toronto has tennis courts right beside a basketball court. The tennis courts have lights, the basketball court doesn't.

[u/asonkidd → u/Rezrov_]

lmao @ downvoters. It's true. It's like this in all of Toronto. They don't want us to ball at all and make it tougher. Tennis courts and baseball diamonds will have their lights on all through the night. Ball court? Good fucking luck.

[u/itsasdf → u/asonkidd]

It wasn't all that long ago that most schools would take down their outdoor rims in the summertime.

They'd always say it was to "prevent theft or vandalism of the nets" but we all know that is a load of horse shit.

[u/wheelz993 → u/itsasdf]

I know a janitor at a elementary school and they still do it, he says it’s because the ballers leave a a mess behind and they always need to clean the outdoor area. Believe it or not they’re expected to work 9-5 all summer long lol, they polish the interior floors, do yearly maintenance, etc. but realistically, they have lots of downtime, and don’t want to clean up after teenagers outside in the heat.

[u/dolphinboy1637 → u/zetcetera]

That's terrible. I've also seen this in so many communities too. 

Also, what sports get lighting for night time play? Tennis and pickleball for sure. Maybe even baseball and soccer. 

What sport almost never does? Basketball courts. Even though we're all playing outside. 

[u/wheelz993 → u/dolphinboy1637]

Basketball is annoying af at night to be honest, you can hear the ball bounce from so far away.you’d be annoyed if you lived close to it

[u/realnameless1 → u/zetcetera]

Pickleball is so much louder than basketball too.

[u/mattychefthatbih → u/zetcetera]

Dude yes I biked down the Lochside trail during the summer and was like fuck yeah looks like an awesome spot for a brand new basketball court and other stuff and it’s literally like two dozen pickleball courts. Fuck off

[u/szchz]

Crappy Boomers (not all are crappy) are the source of so many problems.

Can’t have basketball courts because they are anti social, can’t have bike paths because they are a pile of fat and bones and too lazy to ride a bike and they are reminded of that when they see a cyclist, can’t invest in the youth because all our taxes are going to pay for their Old age security and health care. Can’t have housing cause the young ones haven’t “earned it”.

[u/bcparrot]

It’s so true. Golf is such a crazy use of space. 

This is such a great video - interesting stuff about our society, cities, and sports. 

[u/flyinghippos101 → u/bcparrot]

I love me a good golf game every once in a while but holy mackerel do I feel like it’s a comical waste of space for a game. The fees if you’re not part of a club for rich farts is absurd.

[u/TotalEmployment9996 → u/flyinghippos101]

The fees for rich farts part of clubs are even higher. Source: I am in a club

[u/wheelz993 → u/flyinghippos101]

How do you think they become part of the club? Have you seen membership prices at these clubs bruh

[u/Raptorsthrowaway1 → u/bcparrot]

Ironically, tearing down something not yours to lift up something of your own is the most boomer logic

Plenty of room for golf courses and basketball.

[u/bcparrot → u/Raptorsthrowaway1]

Ya fair enough. But you have to admit is kind of insane how much space golf courses use compared to other activities. 

[u/Canaturk → u/bcparrot]

Total area dedicated to golf in the US is bigger than Rhode Island and Delaware combined. That is not good use of space I think.

[u/spartacat_12 → u/bcparrot]

People regularly pay $100+ dollars to play golf, even at public courses. Even the most die hard basketball player isn’t going to pay to play

[u/dykestryker → u/spartacat_12]

Golf courses in Ontario use 50 billion liters of water every year. How much are those courts using? 

How many soccer players are paying to use public pitches? Hockey becoming so expensive to play here is why America has developed a stronger hockey culture then Canada and less youth are playing every year.

Golf is a geriatric sport. Youths need accessible, affordable sports in their neighborhoods, not to be paying to play.

[u/Bbell81 → u/dykestryker]

Used? So that means it wasted? Gone forever?

[u/Jensen2075 → u/dykestryker]

Who cares about water, it rains you know. At least golf courses preserves the land along with nature instead of destroying it to create a concrete jungle.

[u/anonymouspastrychef → u/Jensen2075]

You have know idea what you are talking about

[u/JohnAtticus → u/spartacat_12]

Yeah and the fees still don't even come close to covering city golf course operating costs.

It's fine because it's a public facility. Shouldn't have to turn a profit.

But I'm pointing it out because the operating cost on a basketball court is virtually nothing compared to golf course maintenance.

The money argument doesn't apply here.

[u/cad_internet]

In Vancouver, there are now multiuse "sport boxes" that have cover and lighting

Unfortunately, there aren't enough of them so for the winter months, ballers must use community centers (which are quite often full in the core areas)

[u/DefiGuy101]

It's true, for all new neighborhoods they put flood lights up for every game, tennis, baseball, pickleball, soccer yet basketball courts rarely if ever get that treatment. Basketball is the easiest sport to pickup and play, 1v1 ,2v2 lots of space for everyone and playable by just one like c'mon. We need more focus on our basketball courts in Canada

[u/Drew_You_To_91]

If old rich white men loved basketball you’d see basketball facilities with amenities that don’t even currently exist.

[u/Adil_Hoxha_in_Canada → u/Drew_You_To_91]

Unfortunately I fit only two of the three...the important one I'm mi$$ing.

[u/Emotional-Chain9696 → u/Drew_You_To_91]

Yeah if old white men could dunk I guess we would see that...

[u/scarfcity]

This is all absolutely correct. In and around my ward in Etobicoke at least 3 planned basketball courts were spiked due to community opposition citing "noise" in two of the cases, and then drainage concerns in another (which I am skeptical of).

Just go to the City of Toronto website and their map tool for parks and then filter by sport. Even a relatively new sport like pickleball outstrips availability compared to basketball. Central Etobicoke especially is a desert when it comes to basketball. Not hard to figure out why.

We have to get louder and we have to get more organized. Keep an eye out for news from Parks Forestry and Recreation in Toronto regarding new parks or renovations. Follow them on social media. Make your voice heard via their surveys. I have emailed them and my councillors regarding this. Be persistent, firm, and polite. The only voices they'll be hearing for the most part are old boomers who hate basketball.

[u/afrothundah11]

I think the most important point you missed OP is that golf courses (public and private) make money and outdoor basketball courts do not.

Sports like soccer rent their fields from the city or private fields so there is money to be made. Outdoor pickup basketball courts do not. Like you state soccer clubs will encourage the city to make fields by showing there is a revenue stream waiting.

Most things in this world can be easily explained by following the money

[u/JohnAtticus → u/afrothundah11]

City-owned golf courses in Toronto lose money.

The fees you pay do not cover operating costs, not even close.

The operating costs on a basketball court once it's built is virtually nothing.

So actually city golf courses are way more of a loss than ball courts.

As for the private golf clubs, you have to consider they benefit from grandfathered-in property taxes that are incredibly low for the amount of land they take up.

Anyone who tries to raise that rate is going to deal with a lot of angry, wealthy, influential people, many of whom are lawyers.

[u/MrDanduff]

We need 5v5 soccer fields too ffs, thats how you grow the grassroot movement

[u/DONTH84NICK8]

Lol, it's because NIMBY folks associate 🏀 with crime it's totally ridiculous.

[u/ss_svmy]

White homeowners don't want to see groups of black kids in their neighbourhood.  It's always been the main reason and no other excuse really comes close

[u/Hungry_Ad_1143 → u/ss_svmy]

That part!

[u/scarfcity → u/ss_svmy]

Facts

[u/Drew_You_To_91]

If old rich white men loved basketball like they do golf you’d see basketball facilities with amenities that don’t even currently exist.

[u/BDW2]

The city removed the rims from the basketball nets at our local park last week. Because it's... winter? They should be up for another 6 weeks.

[u/TotalEmployment9996 → u/BDW2]

Summer just ended a week ago 💀

[u/Raptorsthrowaway1]

More courts = More active kids

Thinking anything otherwise is bereft of reality

[u/Antenol]

The NIMBY generation pulled the ladder and threw a molotov cocktail on the ground

[u/ILikeFPS]

So that's why they took the court down beside my family cottage a few years ago. Interesting.

They took the court down to plant some trees, and then never planted the trees. Classic.

[u/SuplexMusic]

Here is a great story about the success of a public basketball complex in Guelph, Ontario. Free to use, no membership fees, no apps, just folks playing ball! The city did a great job of listening to the community!

https://vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca/kitchener/guelph/article/basketball-courts-become-community-hub-as-u-of-g-city-study-what-makes-space-work/

[u/ReadKindOfAlot]

I love About Here. He makes great educational videos. Fuck any big telco but the new Telus partnership must be good because that's the 2nd video he has released within 10 days.

As for this specific video, insane. All the complaints are pretty much racist. How is a basketball court lowering property values? I have always thought the opposite. Nice parks are quite popular in the few cities I've lived in and those nice parks always have multiple different courts and fields for many sports and families love those nearby homes. Violence, disrespect and noise complaints are 100% nothing but racist. Baseball and hockey games have always been noisier and more rowdy everywhere I lived in Quebec. Those games end later too. So you've got more people hanging out later making more noise and yet basketball with the colored kids is dangerous? Jfc.

As someone who actually know something about sound since it's kind of an important thing to consider when buying a coffee grinder or dishwasher and I tend to go down rabbit holes, the 45 decibels mentioned in a third party report is nothing. A dishwasher a single decibel under that (44) is considered quiet enough to barely notice it while holding a conversation. I have multiple things in my home much louder than that. Some 49-51 decibel dishwasher are marketed as quiet. My grinder makes 75 decibels and my girlfriend sleeps right through it. It doesn't actually feel very loud.

Decibel is not a flat measure. The intensity goes up exponentially meanwhile the scale is logarithmic. 26% louder every single decibel to be precise or 2x louder every 3 decibels. 10 more decibels we're talking about twice as loud already, 200%.

Golf courses take so much space as he said in this video and they also take a massive amount of water to keep this beautiful. It's not ecological at all or an efficient use of space... but it's white and I guess old and racist white people would prefer to keep ruining it all for the rest of us?

The solution should be logical and nothing else. Basketball is a growing sport despite already being in 2nd place for kids in popularity right now and it's cheap and easy to join so that's a sport we should focus on. I'm tired of seeing ugly half assed basketball courts next to pristine tennis courts. I play both and the difference is staggering. We're not doing anything for kids or parents and then wondering why nobody has kids and why the kids we do have are inside getting fat in front of screens smh. We're such a dumb nimby country.

[u/hercules-sex-king]

Uytae is the GOAT! Such a well done video.

[u/spartacat_12]

I think there’s a couple of factors this video is ignoring:

1) Basketball was never meant to be an outdoor sport. It was invented because there was a lack of sports that could be played in a gymnasium during the winter months. In addition to the outdoor courts in the city, there are a lot of community centres/schools that provide public access to courts.

This is very different from sports that are almost exclusively played outside, like soccer or baseball. Their fields get used by the public, and also organized youth/adult leagues. Any organized basketball league is playing in a gym, not outside.

2) An outdoor court has more limited uses beyond basketball. A rectangular grass field can be used for soccer, football, ultimate frisbee, lacrosse, etc.

[u/earlyearlgray → u/spartacat_12]

Outdoor courts have played a significant role in so many collegiate level and professional basketball players’ careers. Also they provide a space for youth to freely gather and be active, a lot of indoor courts have membership fees and are often too formal a space for ppl who just want to take part in a casual pick up game.

[u/Cheap_Standard_4233]

I've never seen anyone engage in pickleball. Is there actual demand for this?

[u/petertompolicy]

In Canada, literally every sports park has basketball, soccer, and tennis/pickleball.

[u/Unkempt_Foliage → u/petertompolicy]

My city at least has very few full size basketball courts. Almost every elementary schools will have nets, but sometimes one is 8ft and another one 10ft, they aren't guaranteed to be in a full court configuration, and they aren't in the best shape: uneven ground or cracked pavement.

There shouldn't be a stigma but anyone not in elementary school is kinda looked at funny if they play there.