r/lovethissmug • u/manultrimanula • 18h ago
đłď¸âđ LGBTQ+ đłď¸ââ§ď¸ Memes that call out hypocrites
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u/Exotic_Dogs_4942 18h ago
World if dude was strictly gender neutral:
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u/Mushiren_ 18h ago
Alright dude
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u/Exotic_Dogs_4942 18h ago
This is quite invalidating to my masculinity, as people also refer to trans women using this word
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u/DragonTheOnes-spirit 5h ago
I'm a dude
He's a dude
She's a dude
We're all dudes
This is a reference to something I forgot the name of
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u/Drunk0racle 13h ago
Is it not? Lots of people use it as gender neutral, no?
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u/CreativMndsThnkAlike 12h ago
I use it as gender neutral myself, but if I'm talking to a trans friend or family member, I will ask them if that's ok or not. It's very easy to change what I say if it makes my loved ones uncomfortable.
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u/ratwithawig 10h ago
yeah same here, also i mean generally i can tell pretty quickly if someone doesnât like it. i can definitely see why some people are uncomfortable with it and itâs very valid.
that said, iâve seen people say itâs inherently NOT gender neutral which to that i would say that in the past 5 years ive called my little sister dude more times than iâve called her by her name by a lot, and have referred to my mom as âdudeâ before too LOL. i never even realized i was doing that until i saw some comments of that ilk and i thought to examine how i use the words dude or man in my personal life
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u/CreativMndsThnkAlike 10h ago
Exactly the same here. I've been calling everyone dude for years, and I've realized that and have been self reflecting on it. I still do it, but I will check in to make sure I'm not making someone uncomfortable.
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u/Exotic_Dogs_4942 12h ago
It's not strictly gender neutral. In casual talk, it can be, but it's not considered one
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u/Odd_Old_Professional 11h ago
Ask a straight guy how many dudes he's had sex with
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u/RealSavagePotato 7h ago
Thats a bit different because dude definitely can be and is used in a gendered manner when you structure the sentence like this. Some phrases have the dude/bro/man as moreso a part of the expression than an actual gender indicator. Many women use girl the same way gender neutrally. I personally have been called girl numerous times in casual conversations as a cis man.
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u/BonkerDeLeHorny 18h ago
to be fair if a trans gal told me not to refer to her as bro man or dude i would respect that but like in normal conversation it really does feel gender neutral
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u/MdMV_or_Emdy_idk 18h ago
As a trans gal, I really donât mind it if itâs used as a vocative expression (aka, âthatâs awesome, manâ opposed to âthat man did itâ). Yet, I understand how some dolls would be bothered by it, since, unlike cis people, their gender perception is built and not inherent, which can lead to insecurity on certain aspects, which may lead to these terms bothering them.
Personally, among my friend group, composed exclusively of cis women except for myself, âbroâ is very commonly thrown around between us
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u/PracticalFan45 17h ago
the first thing i asked my friend when she came out to me was âis it okay to still use dude/bro/man?â because i genuinely do use it in a gender neutral way to everyone i know, like i say it with my mum. she said it was cool and thatâs all i need. if she told me no i wouldnât at all, i think itâs just important to ask!
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u/LumiiNoctis 16h ago
I've seen a lot of conversations of women using "sis" the same way even for cis men, so honestly I did end up getting used to it happening, and also Susie from deltarune which is a girl also uses "dude" for everyone so yeah that helped too (and it helped me realize I can do whatever the fuck I want as a girl instead of having to change my speech patterns)
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u/agerestrictedcontent 16h ago
>their gender perception is built and not inherent
i know what you mean but like, in my experience personally and of friends, the self perception of someones gender is very inherent, otherwise you wouldn't be whatever gender in the first place. i think you mean like external affirmation is built rather than gender perception itself? or do you mean like social external perception?
i'm being kind of nitpicky but that part stood out to me a bit, no hate lol i doubt you meant it in bad faith (and i don't think it's problematic or whatever lol i'm just curious).
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u/MdMV_or_Emdy_idk 16h ago
Yeah, I mean it from an external lens, but also in the sense that most trans folks feel like they have to âearnâ said external lens (not that it should be that way, but thatâs what usually happens), and, especially when itâs folks you knew pre-transition, the notion that that perception is âbuiltâ is even more on the nose.
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u/-Mac-n-Cheese- 16h ago
exactly! or me and my gf who call eachother âdudeâ all the time (especially when were making a joke about something and were doing a character)
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u/cemeteryshade 18h ago edited 18h ago
Same honestly. I feel and do try to be careful about how I speak and how I use gendered terms with trans people so yeah I do avoid using bro and dude, but it does get tricky since in my head I mostly use it in a gender neutral way.
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u/Rashtrapateen 18h ago
i try to substitute it with hg or homegirl. So it still gets that feeling across
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u/WorldRelevant6640 18h ago
That has the vibe of the excessive usage of "king" and similar masculine phrases towards trans guys tho
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u/Subject-Software5912 10h ago
I mean as a trans woman I think itâs kinda ridiculous to be mad that someone is affirming your gender
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u/WorldRelevant6640 9h ago
No it's more of the going out of their way to, sometimes it just doesn't fit the conversation. It just adds awkwardness. Like, for me, if someone who never calls anyone queen starts exclusively ending every sentence they can with queen "Can you give me that pen queen?" "You're a good friend queen." "Hey queen pull over here there's a taco bell I like queen" it starts to feel forced. I don't think anyone's mad, just a little weirded out.
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u/Subject-Software5912 9h ago
Fair but personally I donât have an issue with someone forcing themself to use gender affirming language. If someone wants to be supportive then I could never in good conscience be upset or annoyed at them. The world is full of so much love and beauty when youâre not looking for minor flaws.
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u/WorldRelevant6640 9h ago
Meh, sure. I wouldn't call this perfectionism, but I understand where you're coming from
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u/Just_A_Normal_Snek 18h ago
Dude, if anyone asked me to not refer to them as "dude", "man" or "bro" I'd do as they say.
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u/Hatsune_Miku_CM 17h ago
as always, being a decent person takes precedent over your intent.
if someone is not comfortable being called something, and they tell you not to, don't call them that. it's that simple.
how you use the terms in other conversations is irrelevant to whether or not you should use them in on this person who told you "hey I don't like being called that"
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u/Vyragami 18h ago edited 16h ago
It feel neutral because the English Language implies male defaultism most of the time. Idk since when, but definitely lately.
Like almost 99% human being who know English will use "that guy" when talking about an unknown person with no known information about appearance or gender. And on the internet you'd be using bro almost 100% of the time because a lot of people subconsciously think calling a man behind a screen 'sis' or 'girl' awkward or whatever.
People should try substituting every bro-word with its feminine equivalent whenever they talk. It should be perfectly fine, it's just a way to address someone else right? But for plenty of people it will feel off simply because "it's not right" to act as if everyone you spoke to is a woman.
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u/therandomham 17h ago
Since at least the Proto-Indo-European language, ~4000-6000 years ago. Itâs a lot easier to see in other PIE derived languages without a neutral âtheyâ equivalent, like French.
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u/BonkerDeLeHorny 18h ago
weirdly enough i wouldnt exactly say that calling people "sis" and "girl" is awkward, but youre right that male defaultism is a thing. my mileage for how bad it is varies, like im not scared of accidentally calling a boar the wrong pronoun but then med students practicing mostly on male dummies is genuinely hurting people. its moreso just a symptom of the world we live in tho
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u/Legitscopes_4761 11h ago
Yeah, my female friends call me sis and girl all the time and I don't even bat an eye. I'm a tall, muscular man with a beard for reference.
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u/fredbite87 18h ago
I usually call everyone online bro/dude bc im weird and need that little extra word in there like when I say "like" and stuff, but when talking to a trans woman or enby I always make sure to ask if they mind because I know it can feel too masculine sometimes
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u/InterestingWelder699 3h ago
I see you have the nonbinary flag in your pfp so that makes sense! See Iâm cis so I donât always want to bring attention to someoneâs gender, so I donât explicitly ask but Iâve always got neutral words like fam and homie locked and loaded if someone voices their dislike. And if weâre talking about someoneâs gender ill be like âhey speaking of which is it ok to use bro dude etcâ
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u/JoyconDrift_69 15h ago edited 15h ago
"bro" and "man" don't really feel that gender neutral really to me. "dude" less so but it still has a tiny bit of that aura.
That's why I go with "mate," that word actually feels gender neutral. (Though if someone doesn't like it I would stop using it, of course)
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u/acedog08 6h ago
Bro actually feels the most gender neutral to me. Me and my sister call each other bro. Me and my friends (all female) refer to each other as bro basically by default. Man sometimes too. Like "hey bro how u doin" or "what's up man". Dude is actually the one I've seen the least. Dude would normally be saved for like expressing exasperation or something. Like if someone sends the upteenth furry hentai image to the groupchat then someone might be like "dude what the fuck is wrong with you".
I've seen some people online refer to girls as "sis" but I've genuinely never heard anyone use that in real life before. It could just be my friends, but that's just my observations I guess.
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u/Natural-Boss-5789 18h ago
Don't quote me on this; but I believe it comes down to not receiving the direct validation of being seen as what you are. Kinda like if you wanna be complimented about one specific part of yourself, but your partner compliments everything else. It's not to harm or hurt you by making you feel unseen, it's just a conversation that probably hasn't happened yet.
I think intent is really important; and if the intent clearly wasn't to harm, a simple "Hey man, I know you don't mean it, but could you actually use less neutral terms with me?"; or just stating you dislike use of them as neutral terms because they're male-defined is chill too.
But lashing out at someone who just uses the terms because they think of them as neutral terms is unfair to that person. If they didn't mean it in a mean way, you don't gotta be mean back
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u/Icy-Humor2907 Fictosexual 18h ago
Honestly this. In 99% of instances Iâll call everyone bro or dude or dawg, but if you ask me not to? I wonât.
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u/PikaTube123 16h ago
'it really does feel gender neutral'
to who
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u/BonkerDeLeHorny 16h ago
i mean look at the replies on my comment, clearly a lot of people share the sentiment that bro dude and man aren't very gender-specific anymore
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u/Odd_Old_Professional 11h ago
Sure, until you ask a straight guy how many dudes, bros, and men they've had sex with
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u/BonkerDeLeHorny 10h ago
now you make a good point with the dudes and men but if i were asked how many bros that would mostly translate to "how many people youre friends with"
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u/Odd_Old_Professional 10h ago
I mean, give it a try and report back. I'm interested in your results
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u/SavebatsFromScratch 3h ago
To tons of people lol.
I'm a woman and I call my sisters "bro" all the time. We have never called each other "sis."
I say "girl" and "dude" fully interchangeably as an expression of disappointed emotion, and almost completely interchangeably outside of that.
3.I used to absolutely flip my lid in school when teachers would use the term "dudette" rather than "dude" for me, since it felt needlessly gendered.
There are many other similar examples among people of all stripes, I can assure you of that.
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u/-Mac-n-Cheese- 16h ago
as a trans woman i try to see it from both sides, for example new friends or people who i havent talked to much, or like if my gfâs friends said something similar,
i feel like you can absolutely tell the intention behind it, im sure youre fine :)
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u/Glitchy-Mech 9h ago
Trans women do a little too much seeing things from both sides tbh. You donât have to think yourself into accepting behavior from people who are bothering you
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u/Acceptable_Handle_2 5h ago
Sure, and most trans women would probably be fine with it.
The issue is that often the first instinct when you tell them you don't like it, is to become defensive, and try to justify it, in an attempt to keep doing it.
Also tbe same people get really mad when I refer to them as "girlypop" which feels very gender neutral as well.
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u/Excitable-DogBoy 13h ago
Yeah like I'm ftm but in San Diego you can imagine the amount of "girl" and "girlie" and etc fem gendered terms I get from people who do clearly view me as male and otherwise refer to and gender me correctly. It'd be anal and pedantic of me to get all "erm actually that's really offensive that you would refer to me like that" on them. I mean I'd feel like a dick.
At the same time my close friend is obvious egg who my friend group has been trying to help and support since we realized and I feel so awkward and bad anytime I slip up and use bro/man bc it's how I talk and force of habit from using it so long...I don't think they'd actually be offended but it's really hard to tell and I know she probably won't tell me if I ask
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u/Fuzzy-Manner8308 17h ago
omg th efirst one is the giwtwm person
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u/SuperSmashSean_DX 17h ago
The dude one scares me because I call everyone dude by default and now I worry that makes me a bad person
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u/Jack_Dunford1 17h ago
If someone tells you to stop calling them dude or seems uncomfortable with it then stop, otherwise you probably donât have to worry.
I personally donât use dude for any woman I know to be trans ether but some of them donât mind so you donât even have to go that far
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u/SuperSmashSean_DX 17h ago
Yeah I know not to call them that if they don't want to, I just feel bad that I default to it.
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u/-Mac-n-Cheese- 15h ago
a lot of us trans women still do, you not wanting to upset someone is already doing more than a ridiculous amount of people! im sure youre just fine with how you use it :)
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u/RiverLynneUwU 16h ago
uhh, no, that's not quite right
you'd be a bad person if you were aware of how saying dude makes someone feel and then continued to say it to them anyway
ignorance doesn't make you a bad person
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u/Plenty_Leg_5935 14h ago
just apologise, no one is gonna blast you if you say that you didnt know. It already makes you better than 99% of people, most just start cursing you if you dare suggest that you dont like being referred to as a dude
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u/Sudden-Long1583 14h ago
As a trans guy I might not have the ground to talk about this, but I think if you stop calling someone "bro" or "dude" after they tell you too, then you'll be alright đ
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u/Thesecondcountdown 16h ago
I raise you âmateâ instead of dude
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u/agerestrictedcontent 16h ago
personally i find mate way more grating than bro/dude. i've always used bro/dude casually to everyone under the sun, in my experience most trans women/enbies i know don't mind it and neither do i as an enby transfem, but as soon as someone says "please don't call me that" i stop.
it's not inherently transphobic at all imo, it's just kind of rude to carry on calling someone something they don't like after they ask you not to. really don't think it makes you a bad person if you call women bro/dude in good faith, it wouldn't even be a discussion if people didn't do it in bad faith imo.
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u/Glitchy-Mech 9h ago
If youâre worried about that why not asses your behavior, judge it against outside sources, and decide whether to change or not? You are not forced to do anything
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u/SuperSmashSean_DX 7h ago
Well usually I ask people if dude bothers them and they usually say no. So I think that's why I still default to it
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u/Glitchy-Mech 7h ago
Did you make the initial comment to genuinely ask for advice or to be absolved?
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u/SuperSmashSean_DX 3h ago
Um, I don't know actually. I think to vent? I just kinda did it to get a vibe I guess?
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u/StormDragonAlthazar 10h ago
As a bi guy (which means I technically don't exist), I just use "kid" and "y'all" as my general purpose pronouns.
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u/Fawn_Leap 17h ago
âBroâ, âmanâ, and âdudeâ are situational. The dude in âDude, I had the worst day today.â is gender neutral, but usually those words are masculine.
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u/cemeteryshade 18h ago
The 2nd one confuses me. Is using âbroâ and âdudeâ transphobic now? I always thought itâs typically supposed to be neutral, but I can see how trans people might get offended by it.
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u/Hatsune_Miku_CM 17h ago
it's not transphobic by itself, but if a trans woman tells you "hey I don't want to be called that, it makes me uncomfortable" and you still call her that, you're being an asshole on purpose, and probably for transphobic reasons.
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u/StarryEyedSprinkles 14h ago
there's a lot of cis ppl (esp male) that will call trans women "dude" and "bro" in a masc way (usually unintentionally, ime) and then hide behind the fact that "dude" and "bro" can be gender-neutral to avoid addressing the fact that they subconsciously view trans women/transfemmes as men/masc
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u/LUnacy45 13h ago
I think that heavily depends on the person, I'll call cis women bro in casual conversation but lately I've switched to saying girl in the same contexts cause it feels funnier
Though if any of the women in my circle trans or otherwise weren't cool with it I'd make efforts to stop
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u/SilkenWeaver47 18h ago
It feels invalidating for some I believe
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u/cemeteryshade 18h ago
Yeah I can see why. But at the same time, most people use it as a gender neutral term. Tricky
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u/wyrmiam 18h ago
Generally you're fine, just make sure to stop doing it to someone if they're uncomfortable
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u/TaDoofus 17h ago
It really is that simple, idk why people struggle with it. If I can help make someone feel more comfortable by using a single different word why wouldn't I? People act like it's some massive sacrifice to just not say bro for 5 minutes.
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u/Lego-105 17h ago
I think I get it as an exclusivity. It can be seen an attempt to navigate pronouns and gender referral in an avoidant way which isn't truly avoidant.
If it's scattered in there with she/her and whatnot, I don't think it'd be an issue, but I can understand if you've got a trans woman and you're effectively translating their pronouns to bro/dude why that would feel bad because then that then does appear somewhat invalidating.
For me, the validity of taking issue with it just comes down to context.
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u/amberi_ne 11h ago
How many dudes have you dated
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u/Odd_Match_3402 9h ago
I am personally immune to this because I am aroace.
Checkmate, allos trying to use that "gotcha."
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u/Odd_Match_3402 9h ago
And even then, this "gotcha" is still bullshit, as it is using "dude" (noun), which is gendered and a different word than "dude" (slang nickname), which can either be gendered or gender-neutral, depending on the cultural background (in this case, generically speaking: what part of the USA) you're from, and it is conflating those two words as though they are the same. (Which they are not.)
Basically, it is a bad-faith fallacy that elects to ignore how "dude" linguistically functions in the English language and the nuances of "I fuck dudes" vs "hey, dude!" where the word is only superficially the same, but is in fact playing a vastly different role in both sentences. (Again, to what extent will depend on your cultural background. You are far more likely to see gender-neutral "dude" (slang) come out of the mouth of a Californian than you are to hear it come out of a Southerner. And let's just say that the Southerner is statistically more likely to actually be transphobic by a wide margin than a Californian. lol)
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u/Astridandthemachine 18h ago
It's easy, does the person that calls "dude" a trans woman and say it's neutral call cis women "dude"? Will they stop using said word if the same trans woman tells them she doesn't like being called that? Because I bet the second tweet refers to people who do not do those things
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u/MdMV_or_Emdy_idk 18h ago
It is usually deemed as gender neutral, but some particular trans folks might be bothered by it and I can totally see why
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u/farmkidLP 17h ago
I've known some cis women who can get bothered by it when working in male dominated fields. Which I get, if you're all geared up and someone hosting a training or something is assuming they're talking to just cis men, it can feel pretty erasure-y. It doesn't usually stop at dude either, so many people in those fields will just wax poetic about "men's work" and how only men can handle/are qualified to do that type of work.
Obviously, I'm more concerned about my fellow trans people. Just pointing out that this can be annoying for anybody.
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u/Holypiece_of_chedda 18h ago
And sometimes js saying the gender neutral word is also like a passive way of not using actual pronouns.
Like idk I know it can look like a nothing burger but when it's known that someone is trans and that they go by their respective pronouns using gender neutral stuff to refer to them, like they or guy or whatever, can seem like a cop out.
But that usually depends on the opinions and intentions of the people involved really.
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u/cemeteryshade 18h ago
Yeah definitely have to police my language more with trans people is what Iâm learning. Tricky stuff
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u/Holypiece_of_chedda 18h ago
Hey man, just treat people with good faith, thats all anyone really wants. It would only really be a problem if it's done maliciously.
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u/farmkidLP 17h ago
I think its still a problem if you hurt someone's feelings regardless of intent.
I usually get down voted for saying this, but I think its worth it to keep dude as a gender neutral term only in situations where you know the people you're talking to. Like, I give farm tours to local students sometimes where dude would be appropriate in the sense of it being a laid back setting, but I try not to use it on those days because I don't want to accidentally ruin a younger trans person's day.
Even when I'm working with unfamiliar people who aren't youths, I don't want to put someone in the position of publicly correcting me because that can suck too. I would be normal about it, but I don't trust some of my coworkers not to make shitty comments or argue that its fine because its "inherently gender neutral".
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u/little_leech 17h ago
It's really not hard. Here, I'll give you an easy-reference rulebook to use:
- If someone asks you not to call them something, or to call them something different, respect that.
That's it. Otherwise you can do whatever.
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u/ineedt0scream 16h ago
You can tell itâs not actually neutral because youâd never tell your friend and his wife âyou dudes/bros have fun!â Guys maybe, but you donât call his girlfriend his bro.
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u/Lionfyre 17h ago edited 17h ago
I think the implication is a lot of people (or enough that it's worth making a meme out of) who say they use as dude and bro as gender neutral terms never actually use either term for Cis women.
But yeah, regardless of how you use it, Bro is short for Brother which is masculine for sure, and Dude... hang on let me google the origin of dude. Oh ok, so a Dude basically means the same thing as a Dandy, which is also a masculine term. And Man... well Man speaks for itself. All historically masculine forms of address regardless of intent.
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u/RiverLynneUwU 16h ago
those are used to casually refer to masculine people, it's not inherently transphobic, because they're just words uk
but some people aren't comfortable being refered to that way and a lot of people rationalise it's use by saying it's gender neutral (<- that part is what makes the transphobia), instead of just not calling people by names they don't want to be called by, not the act of calling someone bro or dude
if you would like to not be transphobic, just stop calling someone dude or bro when they ask you to, it's not hard, and you get to keep saying bro and dude to other people as a bonus
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u/PlayerZeroStart 8h ago
It's complicated. Some people do genuinely use bro, dude, etc. in a gender neutral way (as a trans woman, I do it myself even). Others will do it to intentionally misgender a trans woman, but hide behind "it's gender neutral" to avoid criticism. Others still will have no malice behind it and genuinely just think they're doing it gender neutrally, but subconsciously only do it to people they view as "men".
It's one of those things where it highly depends on context, who you're saying it to and what your history is. And if you're ever unsure, just ask.
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u/Zombiepixlz-gamr 6h ago
That's the way I think. I use dude, bro and man gender neutrally, but if someone ever asked me not to call them that I wouldn't.
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u/-Mac-n-Cheese- 15h ago
no not directly, only if someone repeatedly keeps going after being told that someone doest like it.
but, at risk of âspeaking for everyoneâ, GENERALLY speaking a lot of trans women used these words previously in their lives so we know its kinda second nature slang, you can absolutely tell the intent of how it was said IMO
so unless you have a friend in your life whos asked you not to, which i doubt considering youre willing to understand!
youre perfectly fine :)3
u/WorldRelevant6640 18h ago
Yes, because some people view them as masculine and not gender neutral. While I personally think many of the people who don't want go be called bro or dude are in their own heads a little too much over it, the best response is to just stop after they ask. You can view it as gender neutral but if someone still doesn't want to be called it because they just don't than you have no reason to continue
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u/Th4t1Guy3787 18h ago
i think the second one is from a man (jokingly) seeing the terms as feminine because they are used for trans women
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u/hydrationgirl 12h ago
I depends on the person, some women would rather not hear it at all, some don't care, and I personally only care if the use is excessive and deliberate
like I've had men I've talked to find out im trans and then slot 57 dude/man/bro per minute into their speech and like at that point its intentional misgendering
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u/Acceptable_Handle_2 5h ago
Most of the time it's fine. But some people have bad vibes about it.
Usually, these are the people who are clearly uncomfortable with using feminine terms for trans women, so they hide behind gender neutral terms instead.
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u/Aromatic-Truth-4901 16h ago
I've met a large number of people that say they call every dude, bro and man so its gender neutral and then NEVER ACTUALLY use them with cis women.
I think they believe that they do but don't realize they almost never do, only with trans women.
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u/Temporary_Page6865 7h ago
Wait are cis people real?
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u/Speeditz 5h ago
I pop out of existence from time to time
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u/PouLS_PL 17h ago
how the fuck is "man" gender neutral?
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u/JoyconDrift_69 15h ago edited 3h ago
Ironically, it historically was in English.
There used to be separate words akin to "wereman" (masculine) and "wiffman" (feminine, morphed into "woman"). And "man" is/was used neutrally in some instances - I believe some older documents used "man" neutrally, maybe even some translations of the Bible, but really it's historical, or in leftover words like "mankind."
But these days, yeah "man" is usually just masculine.
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u/-Mac-n-Cheese- 15h ago
i say âyeah whatever, manâ to my bosses all the time, only one of which is actually a man
i agree i wouldnt want to be referred to with it, but simultaneously i absolutely see how it can be used interchangeably with dude a lot
alternatively, âmannnnn im hungryâŚâ
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u/DragonTheOnes-spirit 5h ago
Man was always gender neutral. The masculine form just fell out of favorite. The only place where it stayed was the were in werewolf
Woman stayed because male defaultism.
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u/SorbyGay 9h ago
i had the first one happen to me today on hatethissmug
some mfs just live in fairytales
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u/galactuskev 16h ago
You know this is actually something I've had to change in my own language. I genuinely used to call everyone "my man", "bro", or "my dude". I call all my guy friends, and woman friends one of those. Even complete strangers I would enthusiastically call them "my man".
However, one day it dawned on me. I am accidentally hurting people in my life. I know I needed to make a change to better reflect my intentions and feelings. More and more of my friends are transitioning and even if they know I am not being malicious it still hurts. So I have very intentionally changed my language. I have adopted new gender neutral terms for people too. Instead of "my man" I call people chief, boss, or "sis" when applicable.
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u/emotionalexplosions 15h ago
As a woman I will get irritated if you say dudette. There is no pleasing everyone.
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u/galactuskev 13h ago
You're absolutely right. I am mostly talking in general. It all depends on the friend too. Except I've also always hated dudette too
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u/-Mac-n-Cheese- 15h ago
youre a good man charlie brown. youre a good manâŚ
im sure if you were directly upsetting someone, id hope theyd be good enough friends to tell you, however i appreciate and respect your willingness and ability to self-realize something could be problematic*, im sure youre a great friend
\(not in a broad âcanceledâ way used online, more just upsetting someone)*
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u/Fugitivelnk 14h ago
Redditors are all fucking delusional istg
I think the term you're looking for to describe people like me is "normal" (trans)
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u/NoInvestment962 13h ago
I call people bro and dude all the time, but if people I say it to donât want me to call them that, I wonât.Â
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u/Lego-105 18h ago
I get the last one, but how are the other two hypocrisy? Are you sure you know what hypocrisy means?
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u/dd2520 17h ago
That last one is also not hypocrisy. It's just a comic reversal.
All three are clever ways to get their point across, but none of them are examples of hypocrisy.
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u/Lego-105 17h ago
Well the last one is to point out the hypocrisy of asking questions of a trans person questions which wouldn't be asked of a cis person because they're implicitly answered. They may not be asking a hypocrisy, but they are implicitly trying to point one out.
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u/dd2520 17h ago
For it to be an example of hypocrisy, a specific person or persons would have to have said the equivalent for trans people and then gotten offended by that sign.
It's pointing out the dehumanizing treatment trans people have to endure in a clever way, but it's not pointing out hypocrisy.
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u/Lego-105 17h ago
The hypocrisy exists in the line of questioning.
I'll translate it in the way I understand the point being made. "Trans people are asked how they know their gender, who is going to date them, who will have sex with them, and whether their appearance aligned with their gender. But you would never ask the same question of a cis person because you aren't asking while you use those questions to seek a negative answer to invalidate a trans person, a negative answer wouldn't invalidate a cis person".
Now I may not entirely agree with that or the reasoning, but it is a hypocrisy which is being pointed out in the core of the presentation.
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u/dd2520 17h ago
You've explained the joke to me, which was well understood, but you haven't explained what makes it hypocrisy. Again, this misses an additional step, which is a cis person being offended by this in a way they wouldn't mind offending trans people.
It's a very long walk that requires a lot of imagined responses to get this to fit into a hypocrisy box.
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u/Lego-105 17h ago
It's not offence which is required, but the lack of questioning for a cis person where these questions are asked of a trans person.
Which sure, it's fair to say that the lack of this line of questioning of a cis person is presumed, but I don't feel like that's an unreasonable assumption either.
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u/dd2520 17h ago
That's pointing out an inequity. It's not pointing out a hypocrisy. Who is being hypocritical in this circumstance?
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u/Lego-105 17h ago
The people who would by the responses to these being negative use that to invalidate a trans person on their gender identity while not seeing a negative response as invalidating to a cis person on their gender identity
Again, a presumption, but not an entirely unreasonable one
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u/dd2520 17h ago
Yes, in an imaginary scenario, an imagined person can be imagined saying something like "I would never date a trans person" and then also taking an imaginary stroll by this sign and saying "well now just hang on a minute."
So, yeah, a long walk to imagine a hypocrite in this situation. Or you could just view it as a comic reversal highlighting the dehumanizing treatment trans people experience.
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u/Red_Act3d 17h ago edited 17h ago
"Replace 'trans' with 'cis'. Not so confusing now, is it?"
Fair enough, I guess I didnt realize that trans people experience things 100% the exact same way as cis people do, good to know.
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u/_An_Other_Account_ 17h ago
"Oh you're saying Nazis are bad? Replace 'Nazi' with 'Jew' and reread your statement. Doesn't sound so good now, does it, you hypocrite?"
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u/No-Philosophy453 6h ago
"But he doesn't look cis" male security guard after going into the women's bathroom stripping a 17 year old girl to with short hair in texas
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u/ColonialismHater 17h ago
these are all annoyingly smug
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u/Furshloshin 15h ago
it's like some kind of [r/smugi](r/smugifeologyman)[deologyman](r/smugifeologyman)
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u/MelancholicSardonic 18h ago
Help, I have autism and I don't understand
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u/Mindless-Ninja-3321 17h ago
Same. I think it comes down to that people want affirmation for their gender and feel like youre avoiding it by avoiding strongly gendered pronouns. They feel, intentionally or not, you are treating them differently and handling them lightly.
Which I would kinda reply "get over it," because I call my own wife dude and bro. Its just how I talk because I handle everyone lightly since Im unintentionally blunt and rude thanks to the 'tism.
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u/emotionalexplosions 15h ago edited 15h ago
At some point it is their own insecurity and they need to learn to cope with the feelings that triggers bring up. Pronouns are one thing but do not try to control neutral language. It would help them to be more confident in themselves and their identity to not allow things like this to get under their skin. I say this as someone with a lot of insecurities who has to manage feelings they bring up on a regular basis. Iâll do my best to respect their wishes but I still believe it would be good for them to let go of certain things. You cannot force the world to accommodate you.
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u/Legitscopes_4761 11h ago
Yeah, I got flamed for using 'they' once. That was when it became too much for me. I'm already neurodivergent and ESL and now you are telling me the 100% guaranteed gender neutral safe word isn't okay anymore? This was months ago and I'm still not even sure what I did wrong
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u/amberi_ne 11h ago
I mean, as an example, calling a transgender man who uses he/him pronouns she, they, ze, hir, whatever random other pronoun is still just as misgendering lol.
In my experience, when someone (who I actually know, not a stranger) repeatedly refers to me as âtheyâ despite the fact that I have a clearly feminine name and appearance, they know Iâm a trans woman, and everyone else calls me âsheâ, its because theyâre still going out of their way to not identify me as a woman.
Itâs kind of a more pseudo-polite way of calling me a man lmao in my experience. Like itâs not hard to just call someone what they want to be called. If you donât know, thatâs fine, but once itâs been made clear you should be able to call them what they want to be called (though of course mistakes happen, but the proper course when they do is to swiftly apologize and correct yourself)
âTheyâ is for when you donât know someoneâs gender, or for someone who specifically goes by it. But referring to me as âtheyâ is as inaccurate as referring to me as âheâ
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u/Legitscopes_4761 11h ago
I think youâre describing a different situation from what happened to me. âTheyâ does not have a gender attached to it. It doesnât mean man, woman, nonbinary, or anything else. It simply doesnât specify gender. Thatâs why calling a woman âheâ is fundamentally different: âheâ actually attributes a gender that conflicts with hers. âTheyâ doesnât attribute one in the first place.
And âtheyâ isnât exclusively reserved for people whose gender you donât know. Thatâs just not how people actually speak. English speakers use singular âtheyâ for people whose gender they know all the time, often switching between âheâ or âsheâ and âtheyâ without even noticing. Itâs an ordinary feature of English. I get called "they" all the time as an extremely obviously presenting man in a more conservative part of the states
If someone repeatedly uses âtheyâ because theyâre deliberately refusing to acknowledge that youâre a woman, I can understand objecting to that behavior, that's a pretty shitty thing to do. But youâre adding an intention and a gender statement that arenât inherent in the pronoun itself.
Thatâs why being flamed for using âtheyâ once made no sense to me. I wasnât calling anyone a different gender. There was no gender claim there to get wrong.
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u/amberi_ne 10h ago
Sure, I didnât really know all the specifics of what your situation was, but I was mostly speaking broadly about my experience with the pronoun and to shine light upon how it actually sometimes can be and is used in a way thatâs meant to invalidate people.
I agree that âtheyâ does not carry a gendered component, but I also think that that doesnât exist in a vacuum away from human intent. There is no innate issue with the word as much as how it can be used.
Of course, when the pronoun is naturally and only occasionally used and distributed around all kinds of people, itâs not a problem.
But what I more meant to convey is that people will still use it as a âpolitically correctâ way to not recognize someoneâs gender. I find it to be mostly a matter of pattern recognition.
Offhandedly referring to someone as âtheyâ once or twice is normal. Exclusively or almost exclusively calling someone (whoâs proper pronouns you know by now) âtheyâ while also usually using proper gendered pronouns for most cis people is a clear display of intent.
I think the proper term is called âdegenderingâ (though itâs a broad thing around institutions and stuff as well). The issue isnât that a genderless pronoun is being used, but that many people would rather completely sidestep properly gendering someone through what they see as a âsocially acceptableâ alternative to straight up misgendering, rather than just call them what they want to be called
None of this is strictly reflective on you either, I mostly just wanted to push back and wax a bit against the common sentiment that gender-neutral terms have no capacity for harm, haha
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u/Legitscopes_4761 10h ago
Yeah, I get what youâre saying. I think I see some of it a little differently, but you definitely made some valid points. It was interesting to learn about
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u/Acceptable_Handle_2 5h ago
A lot of trans women are only ever referred to by neutral terms. It's rude to use masculine terms, but people also don't want to attribute femininity to them, so they keep using neutral pronouns.
You yourself might have not done anything wrong, but it might have been the straw that broke the camels back at the time.
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u/amberi_ne 11h ago
I agree, but I also think itâs context-dependent.
As a trans person myself Iâm not personally hurt or impacted by some random schmuck referring to me as something that Iâm not, and thatâs because I know who I am and donât need outside validation to be comfortable with myself. Thatâs a good thing, and I know a lot of trans people, usually those early in transition, who are a little more insecure and would benefit from such a mindset.
That being saidâŚitâs also normal to not feel happy about it, either. Just because I donât let strangers get under my skin doesnât mean Iâm happy to be referred to as a man or whatever, I just let it slide in moments when it doesnât matter and am unbothered.
When it comes to actual people who I value and who Iâm close with, I WILL correct them and request they use different terms for me in some cases if theyâre referring to me in a way I dislike, and they do the polite thing and oblige, just as I would if I was making THEM uncomfortable.
So it just depends. Yes, more trans people (or frankly, all people) should be self-assured enough to let it slide off when someone says something stupid or wrong. But at the same time, itâs not some profound evil or act of censorship when a friend requests you donât use certain words to refer to them. Itâs just a minor request thatâs easily obliged, and the polite thing to do is to respect that.
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u/Acceptable_Handle_2 5h ago
The easiest and most effective way of dealing with it, is just to no longer deal with you.
If that's fine with you that's alright of course, but a lot of people feel like they should be allowed to keep doing whatever they want, even if you don't like it, without you shutting them out.
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u/Unusual-Basket-6243 18h ago
I'm cis but the last one is funny. I like the one where straight people get asked gay questions even though I'm straight too. But the poster is kind of wrong I don't "know" my gender I base it on the fact that I have a male body
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u/all-out-fallout 17h ago
I've heard trans people describe it like breathing. Most people don't go through life thinking "wow, my lungs feel so good, I'm inhaling the proper number of times per minute and taking in a sufficient level of oxygen." Oxygenation and normal respiration, or things going right, is the standard. It's only when you aren't getting oxygen that the alarm bells are raised and you know there is a right state of being and what you're experiencing is definitely not it.
It's like a person who can breathe normally telling someone with asthma "I don't know why you're so aware of your breathing and oxygen intake all the time, I literally never even think about mine."
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u/amberi_ne 10h ago
As a trans person, I think an even better analogy Iâve heard is like being trans is having a rock in your shoe.
When youâre walking around all day normally, youâre not thinking âwow, my shoes are so comfortable, Iâm so happy I donât have a rock in themâ. Youâre just existing comfortably. Itâs not even a thought in your mind.
Meanwhile, you will CONSTANTLY NOTICE how uncomfortable you are and be constantly aware of your foot comfort when you do have a rock in your shoe, to the point that, when you remove it, at least for a while, youâll still notice the change and how comfortable you are now and the absence of that irritation, and feel relieved before it fades into the background.
The rock in the shoe is gender incongruence (being trans), and that discomfort is gender dysphoria.
Cis people have never had that rock in their shoe, and have never had that irritation that brings your gender to the forefront. Itâs simply out of mind.
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u/SellEmbarrassed821 4h ago
The last one is just real tho, like is it even possible for cis people to have sex???
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u/_Sate 18h ago
1 and 2 aren't hypocritical
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u/MoonTheCraft 17h ago
2 generally varies from person to person but how is 1 not hypocritical
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u/_Sate 17h ago
If they aren't affected by it, then they are following their beliefs.
A hyppocrite preaches something that they don't believe in, they do something they say is wrong.
They are insensitive in pic 1, sure, but they aren't being hypocritical.
For it to be hypocracy whey would have to get mad at something that they have said doesn't matter.
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u/FanResident9555 12h ago
Dude, bro, and man ARE gender neutral
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u/amberi_ne 11h ago
âManâ is literally a gender, dawg đ Iâm all for gender abolition but in the world we live in, these terms are as gendered as âgirlieâ
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u/FanResident9555 6h ago
Whatever man
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u/amberi_ne 5h ago
Ok girlie pop lmao
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u/FanResident9555 5h ago
As a guy, I donât really feel all that offended by that
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u/amberi_ne 5h ago edited 5h ago
Is that you trying to tell me that you were purposefully trying to offend me by calling me âmanâ lmao
I was simply referring to you with a casual, gender-neutral term
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u/KirksSquirtyNeckussy 11h ago edited 11h ago
I can kinda understand "bro", hell I can even give "dude" a pass (even if I've seen way too many people saying "that's a dude" under pics of trans women to think it's actually gender neutral), but how the fuck is "man" gender neutral???
And also, why are y'all always like "no dude I absolutely have to call you a dude, dude, I'll literally die if I can't call you dude, dude"? Is it that hard to say "I was using the word gender neutrally but if you don't want to be called that I'll stop, I'm sorry"?
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u/Chaos-Queen_Mari 11h ago
Ask a guy "how many dudes have you fucked?" And see if they still think its gender neutral
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u/CreeperX3sssBOOM 11h ago
Bro comes from "Brother", the male word for a sibling, so it's not gender neutral. It also has an equivalent word "Sis" (From Sister) that fulfills the same role.
"Man" as a singular word has been almost exclusively been used to refer to adult males, aside from when it's a part of another word (Mankind, for example) or meant to be a general referring of another person (Such as "Man, this sucks!")
"Dude", to my knowledge, doesn't have either of those, it's just usually used to refer to males, hence the connotation, but it is commonly used to refer to a group of people, or just a singular group, and the term "Dudette" is clunky to say.
I personally only use "Dude" as a gender neutral term, unless someone asks me not to use it with them specifically. Someday the gender neutrality of the word will eclipse the connotation, but it's really not that hard to just not use it of someone asks.
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u/Acceptable_Handle_2 5h ago
Sure they are, but if you only ever refer to trans women that way, but not cis women, it's not really gender neutral anymore is it?
I've recently spoken to a trans woman who told me she goes by she/her even though she feels like she/they is more correct, because if she went by she/they people would always go for "they", when she/her makes them actually use she and they in roughly equal portion.
This is to say, gender neutrality is often used as a way to avoid ascribing femininity to trans women, without outright being translhobic.
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u/CallMeOaksie 18h ago
âStraight relationships are so confusing. Like which one of you is the man and which one of you is also the man?â