r/changemyview • u/lvwts • 22h ago
Delta(s) from OP CMV: If you are a multi-vehicle household at least one of them should be an EV
We live is a suburban area. We recently purchased a Nissan EV. It is fun to drive, very low cost to operate with little maintenance, and 95% of our driving can be covered with the EV. We have a Chargepoint charger in the garage and top it off every couple days. I don't think I have filled up the Subaru with gas more than a couple times since February when we got the EV. Our cabin is 175 miles away and even at that distance the EV covers it just fine as I put a charger up at the cabin as well for the return trip. Before getting the EV, I had anxiety that I would be stranded after running out of battery but it has never been even close to an issue now that we have it.
So I think most multi vehicle households would benefit greatly from having one of them be an EV.
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u/vicdik 1∆ 20h ago
This appears to be a hasty generalization from an unrepresentative sample. The EV + gas combo only works for you because gas is only doing 5% of the work. What about the households that have a workload thats closer to 50/50, do we still see the same benefits for those households ? If you only need one car to cover 95% of use cases might as well only have one car and save on insurance payment lol.
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u/lvwts 18h ago edited 18h ago
!delta Good point. We are both retired. If we both worked and commuted at the same time the gas vehicle would get a lot more use in my scenario. However there still would be efficiency gains for the EV to be used for the more demanding commute. There would still be many trips that could be covered with the EV that today are gas. Couples don't only drive to work. Plus in my scenario I still prefer two vehicles. 1 for that exception where I don't think the EV would be sufficient. Also although I just just barely get an 8 foot board in the EV, if I need to haul a lot of lumber or larger items I have the Subaru to handle that use case.
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22h ago
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u/lvwts 20h ago
!delta Yes. I agree apartment living alters my opinion in that it adds some complication that people with homes will not have.
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u/duskfinger67 11∆ 21h ago
Even hotter take - homes without off-street parking should not have multiple cars. You are offloading the cost of the parking onto the general public to get yourself a cheaper home/closer to city centres.
I do think this should be enforced at the council level, with fewer parking permits being given, and requiring additional ones to be purchased. I, as someone who doesn't have a car and instead cycles to work/shops, shouldn't be subsidising my neighbour to park 3 cars.
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u/joshlittle333 2∆ 21h ago
That only works if there’s acceptable public transportation which is rare in the U.S. The country developed entire infrastructures around the idea that everyone should have a car. Fix those infrastructures before you tell people they can’t have a car.
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u/JmamAnamamamal 21h ago
It's costing you money for people to park on the road? How?
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u/duskfinger67 11∆ 20h ago
Because the parking spaces have an economic value which is being given for free to those with cars, rather than it being monetized. That difference is made up for by other revenue streams. It’s the same way it costs you or me money to give someone else any other form of government benefit.
And not just parking spaces - in many nations the overall expenditure on car & accompanying infrastructure is not entirely covered by taxes raised on vehicles and fuel, leaving a large shortfall to be covered by other income streams. In the US nearly 40% of all road and car infataure expenditure is paid for from general taxation.
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u/JmamAnamamamal 19h ago
I'd say the economic value of street parking is almost entirely perceived by the people living there. Who else is going to want to park there, let alone pay for it?
And as far as paying for the roads, yes that is true. They're also used to get food to you, the store, the restaurant. I presume you ride your bike on these roads that would be otherwise free to you
It's definitely not perfect but making off street parking by permit only would be terrible imo
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u/lee1026 8∆ 17h ago
The big problem is that multi car households generally don’t go “let’s buy 4 cars tomorrow”.
No, they buy a new car at a time, and that new car often have to do prime duty. Which is why we see the odd phenomenon of every car being big in a family. The new SUV have to do SUV work. The older, secondary SUv had to do SUV work when it was new. Now it is a secondary car, but it wasn’t when it was new.
So every car need to survive the “can you work as a primary car” test. Which an EV can easy survive or it can’t. Saying it is a secondary car is missing the point.
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u/lvwts 16h ago
That's interesting. In our 36 years of marriage up until now it has always been "You have your primary car and I have my primary car". When my wife's car needed replacement, I still kept using "my" car primarily. This is the first time when my wife's 13 year old sedan needed replacement we got the EV and it has become our primary car for the normal running around stuff. Beyond all the cost savings, etc. it is also just a fun car to drive.
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u/lee1026 8∆ 14h ago
Sure, but that is still your "primary" car. The newest and most comfortable car is going to be the car used when the family heads on a 5 hour trip to grandma.
And if that car doesn't work for that role, chances are, you are not buying it.
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u/lvwts 14h ago
It is now, but for the past 36 years the economics were not different enough to prefer one car over the other so I drove the Subaru when I went somewhere alone and she drove the sedan. When we went together I always drove so we always too the Subaru. It didn’t matter which one was newer
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u/iceagehero 1∆ 22h ago
I think you severely underestimated the charging infrastructure. What about apartment dwellers, where do they charge? People who live in rural areas? People who cant afford to put a fast charger in their home? People who dont live near a charger of any kind?
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u/drcopus 1∆ 21h ago
How is someone affording multiple cars but can't afford to install a charging port in their home? OPs point is that 95% of driving doesn't require any charging. The only real objection I see in your post is apartment dwellers who can't install chargers in their building.
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u/Blackpaw8825 21h ago
I can't upgrade my electric service. My utility company just says "no". This means I can't have a charger installed unless I spend big money to have my air con, laundry, and oven interlocked so they can't run while the car is charging or I overload the line from the pole to my house.
Thankfully I'll handy, I've done plenty of electrical work over the years, so I didn't need an electrician to install one for me, thus no permits were pulled. But I have to be careful about when the car charges and usually it's capped at only 16 amp charging. (If I need to go nearly dead to full overnight I have to make certain the air conditioner doesn't kick on and I can't use the dryer or oven least the main breaker trips.)
That works for us because we don't commute. 99% of the time our driving can be delayed, so the EV was a "fun to have" car for me, and a way to stretch the lifespan of my wife's car which we'd been driving as our only vehicle due a couple years.
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u/iceagehero 1∆ 21h ago
What about apartment dwellers. Also, there are millions of people living paycheck to paycheck in america. They need cars to get to work but might not be able to spare a few hundred dollars.
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u/everydaywinner2 1∆ 16h ago
How is someone affording multiple cars but can't afford to install a charging port in their home?
people who buy used, only. People who live is high-priced-electricity areas. People who live in high-priced permit areas.
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u/JmamAnamamamal 21h ago
How can a couple afford two beaters and not to install an ev charging station in their home? Gosh I dunno
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u/Sirhc978 89∆ 21h ago
We were quoted installing a level 2 charger a few years ago. I could have bought a beater gas car for $10k or had a level 2 charger installed.
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u/SpecificConscious809 17h ago
Huh? Installation is like $900 before rebate, and that’s in VHCOL area.
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u/everydaywinner2 1∆ 16h ago
You don't know where this person lives. Or the state of the grid where he's at. Or how bad the ridiculous permiting is. Or how much of his property is paved and will need to be dug up (if he's an area that has power lines buried). Or if he is out in the boonies. Or...
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u/SpecificConscious809 16h ago
Your hypotheticals apply to a vanishingly small proportion of the US population.
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u/Sirhc978 89∆ 13h ago
It was on an older house that was setup for less service than what would have been required.
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u/jdubs952 22h ago
I mean, we have a 30 amp electric dryer plug that we use. Charges at 16 miles per hour. Our EV gets over 300 miles per charge so how rural are we talking?
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u/Sirhc978 89∆ 21h ago
Our dryer plug is on the opposite side of the house from our driveway.
Using your dryer plug also means you're picking between charging and using your dryer.
Also many newer EVs pull more than 30 amps. Since you're only supposed to pull 80% of a circuit's rated load, you should only charge at 24 amps.
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u/GreenClayBowl 21h ago
So when i moved in to my home for example if we wanted to do EV we would have to
1- upgrade the electric service (didnt have enough to support EV.
2- have the charging station and/or the cable LONG cable. And those cables are different than the ones in my closet. If my dryer or oven even has a compatible plug (gas) the distance to the parking is at least 20-30 feet.
3- have Im estimated $5-10k in home improvement to get those set up in addition to the new vehicle. I have zero sense for the actual port install cost. But that special extension cable alone is a few hundred probably.
4- afford a new ish vehicle. Am i supposed to sell my paid off $7k backup vehicle we barely drive or have it as my primary that we use for road trips?
5- If i replace my cheap car, do you have any idea the insurance cost difference?? I dont even cut corners on my coverage and theres a notably lower cost.
6- reliable power infrastructure. Some places regularly have catastrophic power outages that would gimp one of two vehicles. We lost our fridge/freezer contents a few times to multi-day outages.•
u/jdubs952 21h ago
The panel service upgrade to 200 amp services under $2,000 ish. Yes you might need a long run of expensive cable to the garage but you're vastly overestimating the cost. Furthermore unless you did a load test on your house you don't necessarily know if you need an upgraded panel.... Unless you were completely out of breakers slots
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u/GreenClayBowl 20h ago
I still think its more complicated than you’re giving credit for. You are right, we replaced our 2 panels too so i overestimated how much if it was the drop upgrade.
So lets assume its $1,000 to upgrade your drop. Where do i get the cash? I dont think you can always add it to your car note. Maybe i ran through my health plan MooP fast (thousands for most), transmission went on car, someone totaled ol’ reliable and now you have to get a new one that we all know will have something break in the first year. I forget the number, but the average American doesnt have much emergency cash. Not even enough to survive a month. Some people i know they could do better, some im less sure. If they are on medicare/medicaid you cant build cash on the record, mom was always pulling cash to not lose her benefits, she was very much not rolling in dough, so it was only $1-2k she could have, MAX. And they would notice if she forgot and send her a warning. “Just waiting for car insurance to come out!”
Lets assume i dont need an upgrade, i dont mind unplugging my dryer. where do i run the cable? Do i cut out a section of my door? Drill through the wall? Run it up into the attic and back down? We get past that by Installing a plug in the garage, okay thats another what, grand? I genuinely don’t know. But it was something like 500 just to replace a simple accessible outdoor faucet so i shudder think. The trades are expensive! And when they arent i usually find budget installs that indicate the price. And im in a low cost of living area.
I would rather replace my roof or take a week vacation than upgrade to EV. Sure there are tax breaks, but they only dent the true cost. I say all this as a tree-hugger who wants to make the leap, but cant justify the cost and inconvenience. We just bought a generator because my fridge doesn’t even have reliable power on our grid. So what, i just dont have a car for 2 out of the 3 days while first energy figures out their shit? I also know several people off the top of my head that have a 45 minute commute to work with no charging station there. Hope you don’t forget to plug it in when you get home or have to leave for a long drive after work. For someone with a simple life its easy to say “ugh its not that hard” but…. It is. Im not even trying that hard to think of ways it could blow up in cost.
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u/iceagehero 1∆ 21h ago
Not everyone has that connection available. If someone was rural and only had the normal 110 connection they couldn't charge back up to full. Then coupled with long commutes or just living in a rural area and boom, dead battery.
Im actually for EVs, but we need to vastly improve the infrastructure in this country, not everyone lives in an area with a lot of charging options.
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u/PIK_Toggle 1∆ 21h ago
You aren’t being reasonable here.
If you live in an apartment then charging will be difficult.
If you have a home, this is a non-issue. You can install a wall charger or you can get an outlet installed for a few hundred bucks. You will recoup this money in gas savings in no time.
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u/iceagehero 1∆ 21h ago
While that is true, id like to see someone do the math on this. If I bought a new EV drove it for 3-4 years and then traded it in vs an ICE car. Does the gas savings outweigh the depreciation difference between ICE cars and EVs.
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u/jdubs952 21h ago
We lease our EV. But I'm considering a used lucid air for $35k ish. Early adopters typically get hammered with depreciation on EVs, but they represent a tremendous used value
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u/iceagehero 1∆ 21h ago
That is very true. For the people EVs work for leasing or used makes perfect sense
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u/lvwts 19h ago
I just did some rough numbers for me. last year I averaged $124/mo on gas. This was before prices went up substantially. Since the EV I average $15/mo in gas and $9.3 in extra electricity charges charging the EV. I also have avoided any oil changes in the EV (which replaced a previous gas car) and I have only done one oil change in the Subaru since I got it. I think Valvoline charges around $70 with coupon per oil change. So I probably will be avoiding $140 a year in that. So I'm saving about $100/mo in fuel charges and around $11/mo in regular maintenance. So about a minimum of $1300/year. So after about 1 1/2 year I will probably have paid for the home charging infrastructure and saving $1300/year by having this setup.
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u/robzombie03 21h ago
Let's see.... filling my Explorer for $78 or filling my EV at home for $1.50. Now extrapolate that for a whole year and I don't even need to see the math. It's crazy savings.
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u/iceagehero 1∆ 21h ago
Yes but new evs depreciate 10s of thousands of dollars per year. Im not going to look up prices right now, but i saw someone recently talking about used audio etrons costing 1/3 of their original cost like 2-3 years later
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u/PinkleeTaurus 20h ago
Lightly used is the way to go right now. The last few years have seen such massive instability to the market, at least in the US. High demand/high prices followed by lower demand, tax credits coming/going, politicized markets, manufacturers drastically varying MSRPs, lease returns flooding the market, as well as newer/better options quickly coming to market are just some explanations for wild value swings. I believe it will ultimately correct and become more consistent, although there will be even more lease returns flooding the market over the next year so it may take some time.
The Etrons have seen very big losses in value, although even ICE Audi's depreciate above average amounts. Some of that on the EV side is simply from a high original price for a middling product.
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u/robzombie03 20h ago
OK. That's been the case for new cars for existence. I didn't think you bought a car for the resale value in 10 years.
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u/iceagehero 1∆ 20h ago
No but ev values drop off twice as fast as ICE cars
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u/robzombie03 20h ago
I think a lot of the depreciation was artificial from the tax credit. If you're so concerned, then buy a used EV for the savings. That's what I'm looking at when my current lease runs out.
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u/PIK_Toggle 1∆ 20h ago
A Model Y costs $40k. It’s not going to zero book value at the end of four years.
The other consideration is whether someone is going to keep the car longer. I’ll drive my Tesla for a decade before I get rid of it.
Then there is the convenience factor. I charge up at home and drive. Meanwhile, my wife is buying gas every two weeks. I don’t even think about such things, because I’m insulated from it.
Even if the gas savings are eroded by depreciation, avoiding the gas station for four years is a fucking win.
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u/iceagehero 1∆ 20h ago
I mean getting gas takes like 2 minutes and gas stations are everywhere. Its not some big horrible chore
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u/robzombie03 19h ago
It's also not a big, horrible chore to plug my car in when I get home so my "tank" is always full and I never have to go to the gas station.
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u/lvwts 21h ago
Gas and regular maintenance. You don’t need the regular oil changes as well
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u/iceagehero 1∆ 21h ago
Thats true. Id still like to see a comparison. I dont really care on the outcome, but im very interested in the comparison
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u/lvwts 21h ago
yes. I'm not sure I will ever break even exactly. It is lower maintenance ongoing but I did have to spend some money to get it set up in my homes. I will say now that I have the chargers, the next owners will not have to incur those expenses. It will take me several years to recoup my costs so I hope the EV keeps running that long.
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u/iceagehero 1∆ 21h ago
I have been arguing against EVs here but im actually a fairly big proponent of them. The difference is I know they dont work for everyone yet.
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u/jdubs952 21h ago
Anyone can install a 30 amp plug for like 200. 110 is the voltage. What are you taking about?
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u/iceagehero 1∆ 21h ago
Isn't a dryer usually a 240v plug?
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u/listenyall 7∆ 20h ago
I think people who don't drive EVs significantly overestimate the difficulty of charging without a fast charger. I charge at home, with no garage, with a level 2 charter and it works great.
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u/lvwts 21h ago edited 20h ago
!delta My cabin is in a very remote area but everyday driving could easily be handled with the ev range. Plus you would always have the gas car to cover the one off trips. I pretty much only have to take the bigger gas car to haul items. I do agree apartment and off street parking add some complication to this viewpoint.
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u/iceagehero 1∆ 21h ago
Again but what about apartment dwellers? Or cold weather climates? I had a Nissan leaf a while back and in the winter I was only getting maybe 75 percent max range in the winter. Couple that with the hills around here and it was more like 60. I could get to and from work but errands were out of the question. I know batteries have gotten better since then, but the charging infrastructure here really hasn't. If my wife were at work how am I going to go anywhere if I need to charge for 8 hours at a time just to have enough to get to work?
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u/Silly_Off 21h ago
OP can’t put themselves in the shoes of people that make far less money than they do. I’m assuming OP is fairly well off to have this mindset.
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u/Bear_Cho 19h ago
To be fair, OP is only speaking about multi-vehicular households. Who, generally, would be considered better off than most.
As for people that make far less money, how big is the overlap between them and households that can support 2 or more cars?
Your criticism seems harsh? As if OP was advocating only EVs for every household
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u/Alert_Elephant2045 21h ago
Well the idea is that you’d be charging overnight so you have range in the morning to drive. Certainly you can’t wait until you need to leave to start charging.
If your wife is at work and you need to drive somewhere in your EV, the idea is you’d plug it in at say 10 PM so you’d have your 8 hours of charge by 6 AM. If you can wait even longer or plug it in earlier, that’s even more range!
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u/iceagehero 1∆ 21h ago
What im saying is the vehicle can either be used for going to and from work, or it is charging. If I need to do anything else, thats what the second car is for right? But, if shes not home for whatever reason, now what?
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u/Alert_Elephant2045 20h ago edited 20h ago
That’s only true if your commute uses the entire range you gain overnight. If you charge more than 8 hours or commute less than 30 miles you’ll still be gaining range daily which you’d then use.
But like the idea isn’t that you keep the battery empty and only charge if you need to drive. Ideally you’d keep the battery at least somewhere in the middle. So for a normal EV that’d be at least 100-150 miles of range you’d have banked and available.
Yes in this scenario you may need to visit a fast charger occasionally to top off depending on how far or frequently you need to drive.
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u/everydaywinner2 1∆ 16h ago
If the power goes out? You're just flat out of luck trying to get to work?
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u/Alert_Elephant2045 16h ago
well you could drive to a charger, like you’d drive a gas car to the gas station
gas stations don’t work when they don’t have power either, so you need enough gas or electricity to leave your house anyways, either way.
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u/SpecificConscious809 21h ago
Your objections are to 2015 charging technology, they don’t apply to 2026 charging technology.
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u/iceagehero 1∆ 21h ago
In many places in the US, the charging infrastructure hasn't changed much in that time. Batteries have gotten much better, but public charging is roughly the same
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u/SpecificConscious809 21h ago
The speed at which you can charge has changed dramatically, and the range of your average EV has too.
The winter range in MA for my Tesla is easily 225 miles, and I can plug in at home and be fully charged in a few hours (from zero). So your concerns about winter range wrong, and the idea that you need to charge for 8 hrs to get to work is wrong too. Are you driving >200 miles for errands?
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u/iceagehero 1∆ 21h ago
I get all that, and I dont really disagree. The problem for most people who haven't adopted EVs is the anxiety of what if I need it now and it isn't charged. I cant just go to a gas station and 2 minutes later my range is full. In my case if I was at low range and needed to charge, id have to wait several hours at home. There are no fast chargers near me. I live 15-20 miles from one.
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u/Alert_Elephant2045 21h ago edited 21h ago
The cars actually charging speed is improving rapidly. The new Leafs charge twice as fast as the old ones.
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u/iceagehero 1∆ 21h ago
Aren't you limited to the chargers speed though
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u/Alert_Elephant2045 20h ago
Well sure but the old Leaf itself was the bottleneck. The new ones just charge faster. They use a different more widely compatible standard.
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u/Delicious_Taste_39 6∆ 20h ago
I think the "gas car to cover one off trips" tells you that there is a gap where actually you need the gas car and you don't need the EV and cars tend to break down all the time so 2 cars becomes 1 car becomes 0 cars quite easily. For redundancy, you kind of need 2 gas cars, because then you are most likely to be able to make those trips. Sure, this is paranoid thinking but if you're a couple making regular trips across states for things like taking care of elderly parents or etc. it becomes really critical.
What happens if there's a power outage? Hopefully you were smart enough not to wait till it's completely out of power, but that's a place you're not going until you can charge the car.
Also, haulage is still a major issue. Most trucks are staying gas powered because electric motors are just less powerful.
I think the crux of the issue is that you've made a good purchase for yourself and therefore think that's how it is for everyone.
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u/Hooked_on_PhoneSex 1∆ 21h ago
Good for you and your unique situation. This doesn’t address anything the prior person said, and also doesn’t address the significant increased cost to a family with multiple vehicles.
Most people can’t afford a home, two vehicles and a vacation property (no matter how modest). So suggesting that they should all use EVs for the nominal decrease in fossil fuel consumption is just plain illogical.
EVs aren’t main stream accessible enough to be viable second vehicle options for most households, and also don’t have anywhere near the long-term positive environmental impact people currently seem to believe.
Owning one is a great option for those uniquely situated to take advantage of the perks and minimize the impact of negatives, but right nods, it’s at best reasonable to suggest that people consider EVs when deciding to purchase a second vehicle.
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u/Z7-852 316∆ 21h ago
Your cabin is in remote area. Some peoples houses are in same remote area.
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u/lvwts 21h ago
Not sure I understand. Many people live in the same area as my cabin. For the normal commutes, trips to the hardware store, restaurants, etc. you are still withing 30 to 50 miles of a town. To get into town or work and run errands it could still easily be handled by a charged up EV.
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u/Z7-852 316∆ 21h ago
But what if that distance is 100 miles? I used to live in middle of nowhere like this. My parents had 3 cars (all diesel) and there were times when we hadn't electricity for weeks. It was normal childhood for me. No EV could have helped us.
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u/PinkleeTaurus 20h ago
That would be a very fringe case. I would hope your childhood without weeks of electric does not overlap the current EV Charging network timeline. Folks living off-grid are now using EV's as power banks.
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u/Alert_Elephant2045 21h ago
Even a cheap EV like the Bolt gets like 4 miles of range per hour of charging on a regular 120V outlet.
The average American commute is 30 miles round trip, so for the average person plugging their EV into a 120V outlet for 8 hours a day will result in a net gain of range on a daily basis.
What about rural areas? Well idk I live in what is considered a rural area and my commute is less than 30 miles, it’s about 15 round trip.
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u/Jakyland 85∆ 20h ago
Most homes also don't supply car fuel.
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u/ammenz 1∆ 21h ago
Imagine this household: husband and wife both drive more than 400km a day for 5 days a week, a mix of highway and a lot of stop & go in high traffic areas. They start and finish work at the same time. They don't have a garage and they park outside of their apartment. Petrol is cheap in their country and there are no incentives for owning an EV.
I am all for EVs but they are not necessarily perfect for every scenario.
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u/lvwts 21h ago
I agree there are scenarios. That’s why I said most households in my post
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u/matt95110 22h ago edited 21h ago
I recently moved to a new house and we had a discussion on putting in an electric charger. We ultimately decided not to because both of our cars are less than 3 years old and it would have cost $8000 to add a charger. We’ll revisit it in 5 years hopefully.
Edit: The reason is I’m Canadian and I require a panel upgrade to add a charger.
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u/jedi_trey 2∆ 21h ago
8000?! I live in a high cost of living area and mine was less than 2k and most of that routing out through the house and garage because my electric box is no where near where I needed the charger
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u/lvwts 21h ago
My home charger cost $495 and the cabin install was $700. The suburban install was much higher but the local electric had a rebate that subsidized the charger
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u/SomeRandomRealtor 8∆ 21h ago edited 19h ago
My wife and I are in a sprawling suburban city and have 1 EV and 1 gas vehicle. We are lucky and have a garage, and it’s was $2500 to put a level 2 charger in our home, our state and city don’t have rebates or incentives to have a home charger. Our city has 1.1M people in it and we have 2 super chargers on opposite sides of town, free charging is at libraries hospitals or some offices, and only adds 16-18 miles per hour you’re only supposed to charge to 80% so your range is less than advertised if you want to keep the battery in good shape. I drive 40-60 miles per day between just dropping kids off at school, going to the office, seeing my mom in her nursing home, picking up kids, and going home. if lived in an apartment it would be a non-starter that I have an EV.
Many people have an experience that makes an EV difficult right now. Many people can’t afford a $20K car, let alone a $15K car. A $10K EV is almost certainly well past battery warranty, slower charging, or otherwise less reliable than a gas equivalent of the same price.
We will get there in 5-10 years, but a lot of the western world, the US in particular, just isn’t there yet.
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u/PIK_Toggle 1∆ 21h ago
$8k for a charger?
I’ve installed two of them and it was $500 for the charger and $500 for install.
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u/MathematicianDry5142 21h ago
$8000 to fit a charger is insane!! Im in the uk. My ev charger install cost around £800
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u/HoldFastO2 3∆ 22h ago
Ideally, yes. But not everyone lives in a suburban house with a charging port in their own garage. If you have no way to charge the EV at home, it becomes massively less convenient to have.
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u/Suspicious-Chair5130 21h ago
Price wise I still pay less per mile by keeping my fully paid off 2005 corolla. It’s got 170k miles on it and it will easily go another 100k with minor maintenance costs. A new ev will cost me a bunch of money to buy and the battery will crap out on me long before the Corolla dies. But when it does I will probably consider getting an ev.
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u/zippyphoenix 21h ago
I am in the same situation. When we got our 2 cars we considered EV, but the tech was too new and no infrastructure in our area. Now both are in good condition over 100,000 miles and paid off and are both very good for miles/gallon. Maybe our next will be an EV? No pressing need to change right now.
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u/lvwts 21h ago
Yes. I would never advocate for getting rid of a functional vehicle but eventually you will need a different vehicle
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u/Suspicious-Chair5130 21h ago
I do wonder if the total cost of ownership will be for many of these EVs. Will teslas on the road today still even be drivable 20 years from now? Will Elon brick the software? On the other hand, Toyota doesn’t even make them as durable as they used to.
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u/jiggiwatt 21h ago
My wife, son and I live on 2 acres, single family home, about 30 minutes from a major city. Our house was built in 1992 and has a 100A electrical service. We have a Ford Ranger and a Kia Soul.
In order to go electric, we need to get a charger installed in the garage. To do that, we need to upgrade our electrical service, which means upgrading the panel and meter base too.
Then, we need to be able to take on new car payments on top of all that because I can go out and spend $20k on a used gas vehicle that will last me 10+ years, but I can't do that for an electric car because of the battery life. I also can't work on it myself until I learn how.
We are getting more frequent storms, and as such get more frequent long term power outages. I can fill my generator and vehicles from the same Jerry can, but any electric vehicle would become a driveway ornament after the first few days. If we had 2 vehicles, one of us can still drive to work, but one parent and our son are going to be stuck home or trying to carpool. We live in a rural area, there is a good reason we caved and got a second vehicle.
Could we make it work? Sure. But it would represent a huge investment for our family and offer less capability. The moral high ground gets a lot less attractive when your family's security is being tested.
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u/Dr0ff3ll 12∆ 21h ago
My friend lives on a farm. All his vehicles use internal combustion.
His reasoning is that he can work on his ICE vehicles should the need arise. He cannot work on an EV, since they're far too complicated, and require knowledge he does not have.
For him, keeping his vehicles running is required for his livelihood. If one breaks down, he can't always wait for an engineer to come out days later. In farming, you have to work whenever conditions permit it. The ideal times to plant, spray, and harvest do not wait.
Putting it all together, EVs are not a viable option.
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u/everydaywinner2 1∆ 16h ago
There is a whole lot of anti-right-to-repair going on in the electronics industry.
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u/Dr0ff3ll 12∆ 16h ago
That too.
The weather front won't wait for you to harvest your durum wheat. When the heavy rain hits, it becomes worthless.
A breakdown at harvest season can be the difference between making a small profit and a huge loss. An ICE tractor, you can fix in hours. An EV tractor needs to be taken away, and you don't know when you'll get it back.
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u/Nrdman 277∆ 22h ago
My wife and I both have vehicles, but we rent with no good port for charging available. In addition, an EV would be more expensive than either of our current cars, because our current cars are old enough to have cassette players.
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u/everydaywinner2 1∆ 16h ago
I miss cassette players. And wind-down windows. And cars that don't spy on you.
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u/GreenClayBowl 21h ago
So when i moved in to my home for example if we wanted to do EV we would have to
1- upgrade the electric service (didnt have enough to support EV).
2- have the charging station and/or the LONG cable. And those cables are different than the ones in my closet. If my dryer or oven even has a compatible plug (gas) the distance to the parking is at least 20-30 feet.
3- have Im estimated $5-10k in home improvement to get those set up in addition to the new vehicle. I have zero sense for the actual port install cost. But that special extension cable alone is a few hundred probably.
4- afford a new ish vehicle. Am i supposed to sell my paid off $7k backup vehicle we barely drive or have it as my primary that we use for road trips?
5- If i replace my cheap car, do you have any idea the insurance cost difference?? I dont even cut corners on my coverage and theres a notably lower cost.
6- reliable power infrastructure. Some places regularly have catastrophic power outages that would gimp one of two vehicles. We lost our fridge/freezer contents a few times to multi-day outages before we got a generator.
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u/avidreader_1410 21h ago
Three cars in the household and none are EVs and I would never own an EV - vehicle, bike, go-cart. I don't want to be bothered with the issues - lack of charging stations, insurance issues (that might differ from gas powered), and the safety issues of having an EV on your property. Just last week, int he Wildwood, NJ area there was a serious house fire caised when the battery in an EV caught fire. The vehicle was parked under a deck, took out most of the house and damaged an adjacent property. The family was out but the dog was in the house and did not survive. A little homework on what happens when an EV battery explodes because of water, charging in an inadequate power source or just a cheap, fautly battery should be enough, IMHO, to make people think very carefully about getting any EV powered vehicle.
When the OP says "one of them should be" - who is supposed to enforce that? Some kind of government mandate? Not for me, I prefer giving the consumer freedom of choice.
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u/molten_dragon 14∆ 20h ago
I bought a new car in November of 2024. I was open to both ICE and BEV. The main issue is that a comparable BEV vehicle would have been about $5000 more and that's not including the cost of upgrading my electric panel and installing a Level 2 charger at home. Looking at the number of miles I average per year and how long I typically keep my cars, I'd have never made up the price difference.
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u/ExcitingActive8649 19h ago
I would argue that how many cars you own doesn’t play into it nearly as much as how much you drive. I own three cars. I drive about one time a week on average. My gas consumption is minuscule.
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18h ago
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u/read-the-rules 18h ago
u/Agile_Chip_7679, your comment has been removed.
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u/Hold_onto_yer_butts 1∆ 21h ago
I have 3 small children.
My main vehicle is a new model hybrid minivan that came out before the ID Buzz. Even if it had come out after, the buzz was $15k more expensive.
My second vehicle is a 10 year old RAV4 hybrid. It gets driven maybe 100-200 miles per month.
I don’t plan on selling either any time soon. I’ll drive em into the ground.
What, exactly are you proposing?
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u/XenoRyet 183∆ 14h ago
I'm probably late to this party, but I've got a Subaru Outback and a Toyota Corolla. I expect both will last 20 years or more.
I'd love to have an EV, but I don't think I can justify buying one when I already have these two fully functional vehicles with that much life left in them. It would be wasteful to forgo all that value just to have an EV.
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u/obeythelaw2020 22h ago
If the government or utility company wants to pay me to install a charger at my house I’d definitely do it. But the cost nowadays is high.
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u/SailingPatrickSwayze 21h ago
How much do you think it cost to install a charger in your home? All you need is a dryer outlet in your garage.
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u/obeythelaw2020 21h ago
I have a detached garage and so would need an electrician to run wire through some underground conduit to reach my garage.
Second I only have one outlet that powers my garage door and overhead light. So between buying the actual charger and adapter and having an electrician do the work, I’d be looking at least $10,000. Not worth it for me.
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u/Silly_Off 22h ago
Yeah people can’t afford a $10000 vehicle let alone a new EV. Even when they depreciate half the value in a few years they’re still beyond what most can afford.
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u/VegaGT-VZ 2∆ 21h ago
Used cars exist and used EVs are cheap. W/gas prices now a used EV might legit pay for itself in a few years depending on your situation.
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u/Sirhc978 89∆ 21h ago
No, it should be a plugin hybrid. You get about 30 miles of 100% EV range, can fully charge overnight off of a standard 120v plug, and have the option to do a 500 mile road trip without thinking about charging infrastructure. 90% of the time, you're probably driving less than 30 miles in a day anyway.
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u/SailingPatrickSwayze 21h ago
This is the right choice for a lot of people, the hybrid has other costs and electric vehicle does not.
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u/TheDoomed__ 22h ago edited 21h ago
Caveat I would add is if you’re able to charge at home. As a fellow EV driver the infrastructure isn’t yet there for many to rely on public charging.
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u/Reasonable-Fee1945 2∆ 22h ago
Show me a reliable used ev. I can get for 5 thousand
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u/JrbWheaton 21h ago
Show me a reliable used ICE car I can get for 5 thousand
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21h ago
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u/Reasonable-Fee1945 2∆ 21h ago
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean
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u/JrbWheaton 21h ago
I don’t know how I can make it more clear…
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u/Reasonable-Fee1945 2∆ 21h ago
I've never heard the expression ice car before
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u/JrbWheaton 21h ago
Really? Internal combustion engine
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u/Reasonable-Fee1945 2∆ 21h ago
I know what that is. I've just never heard of ice anyway. You can find you've early two thousand honda civics and toyota corollas, as well as some mazdas, that are pretty reliable at that price point
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u/Alert_Elephant2045 21h ago
I mean jeez show me a reliable used ICE car I can get for 5 thousand. Used car market is nuts right now.
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u/Reasonable-Fee1945 2∆ 21h ago
Early 2000 Honda civic, early 2000s corolla, there are others too
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u/Alert_Elephant2045 21h ago
The only 2000s civics for sale under $5000 near me are being sold as-is with mechanical issues like blown transmissions.
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u/Reasonable-Fee1945 2∆ 21h ago
There are plenty around me at that price point. Usually over a hundred thousand miles, but under a hundred fifty
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u/BigBoetje 31∆ 21h ago
Most households don't have the budget or the infrastructure for an EV. You might have everything in place, most people don't.
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19h ago
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u/read-the-rules 19h ago
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21h ago
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u/PilotedByGhosts 21h ago
Are you paying for it?
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ 20h ago edited 18h ago
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