r/changemyview • u/AdInfamous6290 • 23h ago
Delta(s) from OP cmv: Gambling should be entirely illegal in the US, except for on Indian reservations*
Here’s my thought process, anything I’m wrong on here?
- Gambling can be extremely addictive and destructive, it is the throwing away of money in exchange for an adrenaline high, it is inherently degenerate
- Degenerate desires are not going anywhere, and will always be sated by legal or illegal means
- It is better to legalize degenerate behavior so as not to create a criminal revenue stream, but to create a legal “friction” for degenerate activities, to dissuade the activity, and the most effective friction (aside from potential danger) is geographic restriction
- Casinos and the associated services are incredibly lucrative and (aside from one extremely notable exception) are basically impossible run into the ground
- A near guaranteed cash flow from outside communities, on a basis that creates jobs and entrepreneurship, aided by a government monopoly, is the most realistic form of reparations our current society could actually achieve for American Indians
* The casinos should be owned by, and its profits distributed to, the recognized tribal governments rather individuals or private groups. There is still the risk of avarice and corruption, but it is more likely that the funds will actually go towards developing the community rather than benefitting a few well connected members and diluted by outside investors, banks, etc.
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u/Apprehensive_Song490 136∆ 22h ago
Giving tribal nations a pass is problematic. This was covered recently by This American Life
See, for example, Windfall: Act 1, Reservations.
Alix Spiegel reports on an entire community that's turned its back on easy money—for now. Nine years ago a native American community in Minnesota—the Mille Lacs band of Ojibwe—built a casino. The reservation had been poor for a century, but soon they were the second biggest tourist attraction in the state, second only to the Mall of America. They had hundreds of millions of dollars...but of course, too much money can be as destructive as too little...and it's unclear what to do with all the cash. (22 minutes)
You assume money will be universally good for tribal communities. It is not.
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u/AdInfamous6290 22h ago
This is the most interesting rebuttal yet. I will listen to that article when I have an opportunity to, but could you explain a little further some of the issues the flood of money caused?
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u/Apprehensive_Song490 136∆ 22h ago
Lots of issues. There's a transcript where I pulled the most notable moments in my view...
Dangerous widespread drug use
Like Kenny, they allude to the old ways. And I come to understand that the old ways is a euphemism for joblessness, alcoholism, and drug abuse. It's a difficult and embarrassing thing to talk about because it plays into ugly stereotypes about Native Americans and alcoholism. Because they're basically saying they think they could handle the money, but they worry that their family and neighbors can't. When I press one woman to articulate what she thinks will happen if they distribute the money, she tells me to turn off the tape recorder, then leans forward until I can see the pores in her nose. Easy money, she tells me, is dangerous. And this is where our interview ends.
Uncertainty and infighting over per capita payments
In part, it's this possibility, that the casino will be taken away, that gives such urgency to Marge's opposition to per capita payments. She feels the tribe must use every scrap of money that they have to diversify their economy, create an economy that is not dependent on the casino. So she's buying pizza franchises and investing in bottled water, and generally pouring the tribe's money into industries which aren't subject to the whims of state legislators. She feels there is a window here, just a brief sliver of time, before the jealousy of their white neighbors or the innate attraction of easy money overwhelms them.
Family infighting
So a few days after Terry deposited our check, I did something patriarchal, very FatherKnows Best. Something unlike anything I'd ever done before. Out of our joint checking account, I wrote myself a check for the full amount of my advance and deposited that check in an account only I have access to, my old savings account. I was afraid that if I left our money in our joint checking account, our windfall would disappear one afternoon while I was at work. Oh yeah, I knew Terry could spend the entire amount, the whole low to high-mid five figures, at one go.
... to the point where it might split formerly stable relationships
More than any other force in a relationship, more even than sex-- and I say this to you as a sex columnist-- money always seems to push people to the extremes of their characters. Money turns ordinary people into caricatures of themselves. Money was a large part of what destroyed my parent's marriage. And now I find myself worrying that money concerns, who makes it, how it's spent, the pressure I'm under to make more, the pressure Terry's under to spend less, will do long-term harm to my relationship with Terry. Because the problem with money is that money problems are never just about money. They're about who you are. And right now in our house, there are only two options. You're either Lucy or you're Ricky.
And this wasn't from This American Life, but here is another example of a tribe that ousted members over casino profits, meaning the tribe is literally casting its own membership out over money through a process known as disenrollment.
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u/AdInfamous6290 22h ago
Very interesting points, you’ve given me a lot to think about. You haven’t changed my mind on the fundemental premise yet, but you’ve given some real world issues that makes me reconsider the shape and form of this system, in particular how it can be reformed to focus profits on community development rather than falling into the trap of putting all your eggs in one basket.
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u/Apprehensive_Song490 136∆ 18h ago
That’s a partial change is it not? Delta?
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u/AdInfamous6290 18h ago
More than anyone else you approached my idea on the basis of the idea itself, addressed one of my central goals directly and gave me pause and cause to rethink. Id say a !delta is well deserved.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ 18h ago
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Apprehensive_Song490 (136∆).
[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) | [Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
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u/AdInfamous6290 18h ago
Oh and thank you again for all the sources that I can go and read/listen to you. This may be a half baked Reddit idea that’ll almost surely never happen, but I do genuinely believe in the broad strokes and am really interested to get more into the details of casinos’ impacts the reservations and peoples beyond what the small number of personal experiences and anecdotes I have gathered from tribe members over the years.
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u/Apprehensive_Song490 136∆ 17h ago
It is a truly interesting episode. I hope you enjoy it. I saw your post, and it came rushing back in my mind. The voices are haunting. The earlier parts reinforce some of what you discuss - particularly the willful exploitation of known gamblers, and TAL does a phenomenal job of covering that. Some of those stories are haunting - the level of depravity some gambling centers will to is beyond the pale. Which brings up some interesting questions about regulation and morality.
You didn't touch on this, but I think that Casinos exist mostly because of autonomy - the U.S. has no business telling tribes what to do, any more than it does telling Canada what to do. This doesn't resolve the complex moral issues but framing it as reparations is...messy.
I do hope you enjoy hearing the episode, and the other chapters surrounding it. Definitely expanded my understanding when I listened.
And thank you for a lovely convo!
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u/AdInfamous6290 16h ago
I admit my main focus here is trying to reduce the amount of gambling in the US overall, I’ve known family and friends who fell down the rabbit hole. You’ve been the only person here to push back on me with any sort of respect and engagement, so I’ll reveal the deep cut is my hatred of gambling is deeply personal. One of my oldest friends from all the way back in elementary school lost literally everything gambling, he turned to fent and killed himself two years ago.
Now I’m surrounded constantly by advertisements about gambling, when I’m trying to watch football with the guys and half of them are glued to their phones sweating over a parley. On the plane waiting for a work flight to take off. Walking down the street in my home city. I’ve never had a problem with it myself, I’ve enjoyed a little $100 buy in basement poker with friends every once in a blue moon. But more and more I can’t avoid some fucking ad that comes up with the bright colors and the big smiles and all the empty promises, every single time I think of my friend’s feet swinging in the air when his mom found him. He was an adult and made his own decisions, but the predatory shit he would tell me about when he was on a hot streak makes my blood boil knowing what it was doing to him, how it was programming him, and ultimately my failure to see it and save him.
For the tribes and the effects of these casinos on them, I do care which is why I’m intensely interested in the info you sent me. I’m not trying to export a problem to the reservations, but I’ve only talked to a few people from a rez about casinos and all of them were very supportive of the casino in their community, they are the ones whose joke of “stealing money from middle aged white guys and old ladies to make up for the lack of reparations” actually prompted me to think of it from that angle.
Realistically, “reparations” is a political framing device to potentially get lefties and liberals on board, while “business opportunities” and “pulling up by bootstrap” is the hook for fiscal conservatives. I’m not a politician, and did bring this to a blatantly critical sub, so I understand why my stupid phrasing was both flawed (I regret saying degenerate, that was emotional) and landed on deaf ears. I don’t really mind the people criticizing the idea, implementation, ethics, language, etc. even with some sass. But I gotta say, all the libertarians I activated who think that gambling doesn’t cause anyone other than the gambler damage forced me to really have to control my reactions lol.
Anyways thanks again and I hope you have a great rest of your day.
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u/Apprehensive_Song490 136∆ 16h ago
That is simply horrible. I'm so sorry to hear that, and I know I'm just another random person on the internet, but that just...sucks. I'm so sorry. The TAL will probably be even more palpable for you, because it's the voices of the people that are the most touching. I never forget those.
I'm also sorry that some didn't engage you respectfully. I kinda like that CMV has rules about that, as I've a couple times had my own comments removed by the mods and that serves to remind me of what I need reminders for (and I used to be a moderator on this sub, and I'm still not perfect).
It is really complicated for the tribes, but in my mind I think it is fine for them to make comments about what they are doing, but to me the issue is sovereignty. The money that comes form gambling, and everything around the gambling enterprise, tribal nations have to wrestle wit that. But it's their's to wrestle with.
So I'm not sure why anyone needs to be on board. They just need to respect the rights of another sovereign government. But then the issue of reparations in general always feels academic to me because I don't see the U.S. ever really doing much about historical injustices on a grand scale. But maybe I need to let go of my cynicism there.
In any event, I didn't want to end with you sharing that without responding and I do hope you find what you are looking for. If, after doing more research you want to bounce some ideas again, you can open this thread back up.
I'm a grad student so I don't want to promise I'll for sure reply, but that is my intent.
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u/Vuelhering 5∆ 13h ago
Everyone who isn't addicted to something has trouble understanding how anyone can get addicted. I've done a lot of gambling and experienced highs and lows. Put myself through a semester of college by gambling. Definitely get those brain chems. But I also experienced if you bust, casinos aren't your friend, and those bad brain chems are far less fun.
I'm actually impressed by your idea, and gotta admit, was very much against it the moment I read it. But when you justified it as reparations for genocide and reducing criminality, that was like a puzzle piece from a different puzzle was brought over and clicked into place, at least in a big picture way. The implementation would be nightmarish, but it passes the smell test.
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u/rober11529 23h ago
If gambling is so addictive and destructive, why is casino revenue for Indian reservations a valid exception? Can't we find a way to provide "reparations" that do not require all the suffering associated with gambling?
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u/AdInfamous6290 23h ago
Gambling is going to happen whether we want it to or not, so I believe it should be done in a controlled environment.
And we absolutely could, in a more perfect world, do proper reparations. But it is my opinion that the current and near future American political climate would not even consider formal reparations, but cleverly designed and marketed laws to “protect kids from gambling” alongside “special economic opportunity zones” are not only realistic, but pragmatic.
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u/rober11529 23h ago
I don't see why a "controlled environment" cannot be created outside Indian reservations.
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u/AdInfamous6290 23h ago
Well historically and currently, their legally nebulous status as it relates to US law already grants them this. I mentioned somewhere else that maybe Las Vegas could be an exception, but I dunno I think that whole city is a mistake that won’t be able to hydrate itself in 50 years, so maybe we usher it into the dustbin deliberately rather that through inevitable negligence.
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u/Delicious_Taste_39 6∆ 23h ago
If you believe it is a necessary evil you then have to create the availability of gambling opportunities which means building casinos where people are rather than in the reservations.
Otherwise, people inclined to gamble aren't inclined to do it legally. If the nearest casino is an hour's drive, that means a significant number of people aren't going to use it and will instead get sucked into the local illegal gambling.
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u/AdInfamous6290 22h ago
An hours drive is not an impediment for the vast majority of Americans. That is a normal work commute, or less, for most people here. Those who can’t afford a car can take the bus, those who can’t afford to take the bus can’t afford to gamble.
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u/Delicious_Taste_39 6∆ 22h ago
They can't afford it, but they're inclined to do it. If there is no local option, then they are given the opportunity legally and so are going to be inclined to do it illegally.
Actually, this is how the trouble starts. They don't have money, so they can't gamble but they're offered it by illegal gambling groups to allow them to do so. And now they're in debt to an illegal gambling ring who aren't going to use legal means to get it back.
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u/AdInfamous6290 22h ago
Gambling isnt the kind of activity that is really lucrative if restricted to incredibly impoverished group of people, unlike drugs. It makes most of its money on retirees on a fixed income, whales, insecure middle class men and tourists. If extremely poor gambling addicts start a dice game in an alley, what the fuck ever. Organized crime isnt interested in the tiny margins of revenue, people with no lines of credit and no assets to squeeze.
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u/Delicious_Taste_39 6∆ 22h ago
Where do you think crime comes from?
An illegal gambling ring is going to struggle to get their share of wealthy retirees. It will start with the people inclined to bet small amounts in an illegal dice game. If successful, it will expand the games.
The problem is that it's unregulated and it's not controlled and the people running it are likely to do things differently to recover the money than a legal company would do.
You need access to safer gambling and if you don't have it, then people revert to illegal gambling.
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u/AdInfamous6290 22h ago
Yes, safer gambling on a reservation. If these locations are seriously having an issue retaining customers due to inaccessibility, I would think all that money rolling in from the actually lucrative sectors of the gambling industry could finance infrastructure (more buses, subsidized tickets, train lines, ferries, etc.) could go towards stopping the bleeding of old retirees hanging out in the ghetto playing poker om a cardboard box. You are making a mountain out of a molehill here, I think you seriously underestimate how mobile the vast majority of the American population is, especially if it’s to go to something they want or need.
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u/Delicious_Taste_39 6∆ 22h ago
If it's something people do habitually, then distance is a serious problem. They will attempt to gamble all the time. Giving them safe places to do it means they do it safely. The problem with a distant gambling location is that this only gets the casual gamblers who are doing it for fun. It doesn't get the people who are doing this out of a sense of need. The illegal gambling rings feed on those gamblers who need to gamble.
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u/AdInfamous6290 21h ago
Then before widespread legalization of digital gambling, why were illegal gambling rings not a big issue when the vast majority of gambling was restricted to Las Vegas, Atlantic City and the reservations? You had individual bookies, but organized crime has been so disinterested in non-casino gambling for the last 40 years that every bookie I knew or knew of was independent.
Again, if you think an hour is distant, I don’t even believe you are familiar enough with American culture to change my mind on an idea that is fundamentally American in nature. You could even be American and not familiar enough with the habits and expectations of the vast majority of the people around you, I’m not sure how but that is possible.
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u/Sure_Acanthaceae_348 23h ago
Disagree. If I had to ban gambling, I would ban any form of non-in-person gambling like on mobile devices, as gambling from one's phone is the worst form of this problem.
Restricting it only to Indian reservations would result in a lot of gambling properties being sold to Indian tribes, so you wouldn't reduce the overall casino footprint.
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u/AdInfamous6290 23h ago
Indian reservations themselves cannot buy US land, not without a diplomatic treaty. They are not quite separate countries, but they are also not quite US territory. It is majorly complicated and any potential land acquisitions would be heavily disputed on the local, state and federal level.
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u/Sure_Acanthaceae_348 23h ago
They can lease it though. Prior to many states' expansion into gambling, many pro-gambling politicians looked to arrange for long-term (99 year) leases of properties to Indian tribes. It bypassed Congress and recalcitrant (at the time) state legislatures.
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u/AdInfamous6290 22h ago
Good point, right now this is a de facto right of the Reservations but I think it should be explicitly codified as a monopoly, which comes of course with certain restrictions on the ways they do business including land acquisition. We could block leases, and then more work arounds and loopholes will be figured out, so ultimately we can only hope for an active and dynamic legislature for future patching of the laws and system.
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u/cbr777 1∆ 21h ago
Why should Indian reservations have a monopoly on gambling? That is absurd.
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u/AdInfamous6290 20h ago
Because they basically used to, aside from Las Vegas and Atlantic City, and I think the government owes them an opportunity to make some money after smashing their societies into the dirt for hundreds of years.
It’s the classic story between the government and the tribes, they go in in, take some shit, give them some shittier shit, then take that shit when it’s looking less shitty. The mass legalization of sports gambling and digital gambling has put a major dent in tribal casino profits, and personally I find that pretty not cool given it was the industry America was like “ok you guys can do this to make money, we’re only gonna do a little bit of it legally but otherwise the rest of it is all yours.”
It’s also extremely dangerous to put a slot machine in everyone’s pocket 24/7 with little to no oversight.
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u/cbr777 1∆ 20h ago edited 20h ago
No, that is outright absurd, I don't care if they "used to" or not, even if they did, that didn't make it right and it certainly won't be to give them a monopoly now, nor do I care about your feelings of guilt or what you think the government owes to anyone.
Your position is honestly confounding, on one hand you you complain about having a slot machine in every pocket and on the other hand you have absolutely no issue giving Indian tribes a monopoly on gambling. If your position is that gambling is bad, then it's bad in all cases, not just when the casino is owned by nonindians.
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u/AdInfamous6290 20h ago
OK, your position that you don’t care isn’t going to CMV.
And no I’m not a moral absolutist, I don’t think of the world and especially public policy in black and whites. I can be against something but recognize that outright banning it will cause more problems than simply making it harder to access. I can also respect that cultural and historical tradition can play into where we draw the lines and how we draw them, because I think framing things in a historically, infrastructurally, culturally and legally pre established context is more politically realistic and achievable in the US right now. If that also helps a group of people who deserve some help, then even better.
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u/Phage0070 124∆ 20h ago
> it is the throwing away of money in exchange for an adrenaline high,
This sounds like many other thrill-seeking activities. With something like water skiing people are also spending money for an adrenaline high but they never come out positive.
> it is inherently degenerate
When this kind of language and reasoning enters the discussion I start to think that the real motivation behind opposing gambling is some puritanical morality rather than quantifiable harm.
Suppose we have a simple, low-to-no stakes game like Flip 7. As someone keeps turning cards they are risking losing all the points they scored on the chance to win more. Is that kind of game "inherently degenerate"? What if the stakes were pennies? A few dollars? I think it is hard to accept the activity as being "inherently degenerate" when it is only bad if there are meaningful amounts of money involved.
> 2. Degenerate desires are not going anywhere, and will always be sated by legal or illegal means
Again this really sounds like the motivation is to impose religious morality.
> the most effective friction (aside from potential danger) is geographic restriction
If gambling is actually harmful then why don't you care about protecting the native Americans?
Again this sounds more like it comes from a puritanical preacher who wants to keep the sinful practice of gambling amongst the godless heathen savages. However from a modern, non-discriminatory viewpoint if gambling is actually bad for people we should be trying to protect native Americans just as much as anyone else.
> A near guaranteed cash flow from outside communities, on a basis that creates jobs and entrepreneurship, aided by a government monopoly, is the most realistic form of reparations our current society could actually achieve for American Indians
If native Americans are to be offered a monetary payout for the suffering of their ancestors it makes no sense to make it dependent on a harmful vice the government is trying to stamp out. Among other things that makes the government directly opposed to providing said reparations, it motivates native Americans to encourage an activity you think is harmful, and sets up native Americans to bear the blame for the detrimental effects of gambling.
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u/AdInfamous6290 20h ago
Much like others, you have good points on my usage of the word degenerate. It’s puritanical language that has no place in actual policy, and yeah I am personally a little bit puritanical about gambling but it’s not my intention to push a total ban or have it be public policy to shame or demean gamblers, just to make it harder to access. I was mistaken to use such inflammatory language.
Because under the model of community ownership, any money community members put into the casino will just be recycled back into the community. Perhaps one individual member loses out on this, but overall no money has actually left the local system so the harm is localized. And ideally that money would be invested in diversifying the local economy and building up a community of people with stable incomes and increased access to health and psychological services. Though it would be up to the tribal governments on how to spend the money, I don’t think the funds should be directed by the federal or state governments.
My point about reparations is it is the most politically expedient way of actually funneling resources into these communities. I have no faith that a majority of the house, 60 senators and the president would be able to achieve official reparations anytime in the near future (next few decades) unless things very significantly change here in the US. But the tribal monopoly was already close to being the de facto status quo for quite a while until national sports and digital gambling exploded onto the scene. All I’m proposing is that it be codified and be reworked om the ownership side. The most revolutionary aspect is Las Vegas blowing away in a sandstorm after the casinos are all closed.
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u/Phage0070 124∆ 19h ago
Because under the model of community ownership, any money community members put into the casino will just be recycled back into the community.
How would that actually work in practice though? I thought the idea of putting casinos only in native American reservations was that it would impose an obstacle due to the distance gamblers would need to travel. So how does the money of someone who travels to get to the casino have their money return to their community? It seems like your plan would have it end up in the native American community which isn't their local system.
Though it would be up to the tribal governments on how to spend the money, I don’t think the funds should be directed by the federal or state governments.
This seems to entirely torpedo your premise that the money would go into helping local communities. Not only would everyone who didn't live on tribal land not have any mechanism for their money to return to their local community, there would also be no guarantee that the tribal government would keep the money local either!
A realistic measure to keep the money local would be to have gambling only be allowed for people with residency in the state in which it takes place, and for all profits to go into the state budget.
My point about reparations is it is the most politically expedient way of actually funneling resources into these communities.
None of the other reasons given for wanting tribal governments to have a monopoly on gambling really work other than this one, but while it vaguely makes sense I don't think it is a good reason to actually do it. Not only does it associate an already historically oppressed minority with a vice many view as harmful and even sinful, it also doesn't really seem that politically expedient either. 45 out of 50 states run their own lotteries, and there are major cities based around tourism associated with gambling. Las Vegas isn't the only city that would be impacted; Texas alone would be looking at an income loss of $2 billion each year!
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u/AdInfamous6290 19h ago
Talking about community, I am talking about the reservations themselves specifically. There are some casinos that are already run this way, where the casino is owned by the tribal government itself. For people not living on the reservation, for the purposes of the whole community angle, they are not included. Perhaps if conditions improve dramatically the reservations could become more desirable places to live, and tribal members who left could return.
And absolutely it is still an uphill battle politically due to both new and existing players with a ton of dough and political connections entrenched around the country. Especially the tech scene bursting into this arena, that is an incredibly powerful political bloc to go up against and ultimately this is still just an idea on Reddit. But that is how hopelessly unlikely I find the prospect of actual reparations, and there is growing public fatigue with the explosion of gambling that has occurred recently that could be galvanized into an actual interest group. Maybe in a decade or two if I’m tired of business and local politics I’ll try to get into national politics and champion my cause against gambling and for the American Indians, but I’m no where even close to having federal or even state level clout yet.
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u/SANcapITY 27∆ 23h ago
Should all addictive behaviors (which can be practically anything) be allowed only on Indian reservations to create that friction?
Does the principle apply to all addictions, or is gambling somehow special?
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u/AdInfamous6290 23h ago
Gambling because the infrastructure and management expertise is already there on most reservations. I would be open to more state monopolies on voluntary but exploitative/problematic industries, such as alcohol, drugs, prostitution, etc. for American Indians and other distinct groups with a history of oppression, but this post is specific to gambling because it has exploded in popularity and accessibility lately.
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u/SANcapITY 27∆ 23h ago
Ok then I'll revert back to the basics: why is it the government's job to curtail gambling at all? Why can't an adult choose to piss away their own money, even if it harms their family?
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u/AdInfamous6290 22h ago
Because it is bad, it is degenerate, and we should at least try to make a better society. I haven’t been a nihilist (libertarian) since high school, the government does have a role in trying to make our society a better place to live. Sometimes that requires unorthodox methods.
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u/Conscious-Card5611 22h ago
Are you equating nihilism and libertarianism? How do you figure?
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u/AdInfamous6290 22h ago
Libertarianism doesn’t believe it is possible for organized groups of people to deliberately create a better society. In my experience once being a part of those kind of groups, they believe in absolute individualism where any collective effort with rules and enforcement that is not agreed upon by 100% of its constituent members is not only impractical and inefficient, but immoral. The ideal and basis of the ideology is not nihilistic, but the outcome ultimately is due to the impossibility of achieving unanimous consent of the governed.
But that is all outside the scope of the CMV. You baited me into giving you that, but I really shouldn’t keep ranting about something so off topic.
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u/SANcapITY 27∆ 22h ago
and we should at least try to make a better society
Enforcing your views on other people using the force of the government doesn't mean you are making a better today. The government is supposed to be a reflection of the desires of the people, and if the people want to gamble, it is not the government's job to stop them.
nihilist (libertarian)
Oof, you misunderstood libertarianism badly if you think it nihilistic. But that's beyond this CMV. But let's just say the government should protect people and their property. As long as gambling is not infringing on someone's rights, the government should have no say in it.
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u/AdInfamous6290 22h ago
I honestly think this whole thread is departing the confines of the CMV. As much as I would love to explain my disillusionment and idealogical migration away from libertarianism, the merits of the social contract and benefits of living in a society where people care about the wellbeing of others, it’s just going to end up being a 32 reply thread of us talking our ideas at each other because we are both touching on fundamental beliefs that I doubt we’d change each others minds on in this format. You have not changed my mind on the basis of restricting gambling to the geographic domain of the Indian reservations in America (Canada, Mexico and the rest of the world can do as they please, being fully sovereign nations.)
I’m sorry about the nihilism jab, that was uncalled for and has more to do with my move from libertarianism than the actual basis of an ideology that (sometimes) has valid points.
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u/SANcapITY 27∆ 22h ago
Sure, and I think you have a fundamentally erroneous belief about the function of government and individual liberty which informs your position / CMV.
What would actually change your view?
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u/AdInfamous6290 21h ago
I’ve marinated on this one for a while and thought I was airtight, but another commenter is starting to break me down a little by providing a ton of real world examples and research into a ton of the issues for the reservations with the current system of reservation gambling that my post does nothing to address and would most likely make worse.
So basically, I could CMV with solid information on the downsides for the community I am explicitly looking to benefit with this idea. But a larger debate on the fundemental nature and role of government has a 0% chance of changing my mind on either this specific idea or my ideas on government overall. My experience in life has taught me waaaaaay too many of the pitfalls of absolute liberty, and I will always listen to my experiences, family, friends, business partners and fellow community members over a, no offense, completely random internet stranger on such a wide and important matter.
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u/SANcapITY 27∆ 21h ago
Well it seems I don't have any argument that would sway you then, as I know basically nothing about reservations and gambling on them.
My experience in life has taught me waaaaaay too many of the pitfalls of absolute liberty,
There is no sense in which you have lived in a world where anything resembling "absolute liberty".
and I will always listen to my experiences, family, friends, business partners and fellow community members over a, no offense, completely random internet stranger on such a wide and important matter.
But you are willing to listen to data that shows it may be harmful to the reservation/it's inhabitants :) So clearly, your experience is not the only arbiter of your views.
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u/AdInfamous6290 21h ago
As a libertarian I’m surprised you don’t know about the secret to achieving a slice of absolute liberty yet. You can carve out all sorts of little domains by simply breaking the law and not getting caught. Like I said, I was a full blown libertarian, and I’ve never been arrested. That’s all I’ll say.
I am willing to listen to random internet strangers who provide well sourced evidence from a reputable source on a niche topic and my theoretical idea. I am not willing to listen to random internet strangers on the foundation of my idealogical belief, I’ve been all over the place ideologically but I can happily say I’ve only ever been misled by in real life people. I’ve also had to slowly learn who to, when to and how to trust people as it relates to my own beliefs, but this skill set that I’m proud of isn't very applicable on the internet because of anonymity, so I’ll stick to playing with non foundational ideas here.
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u/Hornet1137 1∆ 21h ago
Or you could just stay in your own lane and not do it if you have a problem with it. Quit trying to decide how others should be allowed to spend their money.
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u/AdInfamous6290 21h ago
Naw, people shouldn’t be able to spend their money on child porn, anthrax, bald eagle skulls, slaves, medals of honor, nuclear materials, government access/corruption, javalin missile systems, human organs, and all sorts of stuff. I enjoy living in a civil society, thank you very much.
I’m not even talking about banning gambling, just geographically restricting it.
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u/Hornet1137 1∆ 19h ago
I love how people always bring up ridiculous things like cp and slavery when making a false equivalence to something like gambling your money away at a casino.
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u/AdInfamous6290 18h ago
So you’re OK with the government restricting what people spend their money for theirs and others money? If so, where do you think the line should be drawn?
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u/BigBoetje 31∆ 21h ago
Gambling can be extremely addictive and destructive, it is the throwing away of money in exchange for an adrenaline high, it is inherently degenerate
Those are some very vague terms. There are plenty of things that are extremely addictive and destructive. Going bungee jumping is throwing away money for an adrenaline high as well. The difference is the amount you spend.
Degenerate desires are not going anywhere, and will always be sated by legal or illegal means
What do you mean with 'degenerate'? That's a very subjective term. Ultra-conservatives might consider sex without the intent to procreate degenerate as well.
It is better to legalize degenerate behavior so as not to create a criminal revenue stream, but to create a legal “friction” for degenerate activities, to dissuade the activity, and the most effective friction (aside from potential danger) is geographic restriction
People that want to gamble will do so, location won't stop em. Indian casinos are still full for a reason.
Casinos and the associated services are incredibly lucrative and (aside from one extremely notable exception) are basically impossible run into the ground
So?
The casinos should be owned by, and its profits distributed to, the recognized tribal governments rather individuals or private groups
Are they going to 'confiscate' ownership of the existing casinos then? What makes you think the reservations will accept such a blatant overreach of the government on their land?
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u/AdInfamous6290 21h ago
It seems in the first couple sections you completely ignore that I don’t want to ban gambling universally, it’s a sequential chain of thought leading to my ultimate conclusion, not individual points towards it. A lot of people seem to have a problem with the word degenerate, fair enough that’s for a lot of historical baggage and maybe I should reconsider the use of that term. But I mean anything that is addictive, exploitative and destructive to an overall community, quite literally degenerating the person and their community.
As for the reservations not accepting overreach, this would be giving the casinos and associated profit centers TOO the reservation governments, not taking it from them. It would also be enshrining their exclusive monopoly rights over a profitable industry in perpetuity, it’s kinda a once in a national-lifetime opportunity.
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u/BigBoetje 31∆ 21h ago
It seems in the first couple sections you completely ignore that I don’t want to ban gambling universally, it’s a sequential chain of thought leading to my ultimate conclusion, not individual points towards it
I know, but I am addressed each point individually because they are flawed. The 'sequential chain' is simply your list of arguments for it, and it's common to address arguments individually. I'm not challenging your conclusion based on your premises, I am challenging those premises.
But I mean anything that is addictive, exploitative and destructive to an overall community, quite literally degenerating the person and their community.
That's still very vague and overly broad. Should alcohol also be banned then except on reservations? Gambling isn't really destructive to the community, it's on an individual level.
As for the reservations not accepting overreach, this would be giving the casinos and associated profit centers TOO the reservation governments, not taking it from them
They'd still be taking away existing casinos from individuals and giving those to the local governments.
It would also be enshrining their exclusive monopoly rights over a profitable industry in perpetuity, it’s kinda a once in a national-lifetime opportunity.
It would still also be the government throwing them a bone and expecting eternal gratitude for some reason.
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u/AdInfamous6290 21h ago
Alcohol is beyond the scope of this conversation, but I think there are solid arguments for restricting it more, yes. Not so dramatically as to just the reservations, I do not think that would practical or popular enough. But maybe banning alcohol delivery to residential addresses, mandating liquor license limits based on locality population size, increasing zoning and ordinance requirements for places where alcohol is sold or served, including certain infrastructural requirements (public transport) and limiting hours of operation. I’m sure I could think of more reasonable ways to cut down on the number of establishments that offer alcohol to make it a little harder and safer to acquire, but I’m not talking about prohibition or anything revolutionary like that.
Yes, we would be empowering the reservations to be able to revoke private property in the sole case of acquiring casinos. I do not see this as problematic, and I very much doubt that the tribal governments and tribal members would have a problem given this is both a increase in their authority and autonomy as well as a generational opportunity for revenue and community development.
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u/Realistic_Yogurt1902 3∆ 19h ago
The main problem with this view is that the view itself is about the consequences of a much larger question. The larger question is: "Does the US government owe anything to Indigenous people, and if so, then to what extent?"
Casinos can or cannot be the most efficient way to enrich native tribers, but before discussing a way of enrichment, we should have a common understanding if this enrichment is even desired. Here, I am trying to change the view - start from the main question, not from the consequences.
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u/AdInfamous6290 19h ago
Fair enough, I argue the federal government does owe these tribal governments for the many years of outright oppression, crooked deals, broken treaties and overall dishonorable treatment of their governments and peoples. The government has done many of the things they did to the Indians to other governments and peoples, individually om a case by case basis. But no other peoples endured it so consistently, so acutely and for so long as the American Indians.
This issue is not necessarily distinct to the American Indian peoples, I think there are very good arguments in favor of some form of reparations for black people in America, but that is in my opinion less clear cut due to the closer integration and (current) lack of legal distinction from broader American society. I can go back in time and magically make important decisions? They get 40 acres and a mule, but we are talking about folks today who are the descendants of those slaves, and the majority now never even lived through Jim Crow. I’m not trying to diminish current day struggles, but in this case I am focusing on the Indians because I think a) the treatment and crimes committed against them were worse, b) they are still living in legally, culturally, geographically distinct ghettos (the more formal definition of that word), c) have most of the existing infrastructure and know how to carry out such an idea in place and d) I sincerely believe there is more political appetite and will for something like this over official reparations for any group.
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u/Realistic_Yogurt1902 3∆ 19h ago
Thanks for the explanation, but again, your explanation itself deserves a CMV post, as I can bet that the majority of people (even on pretty Left-wing Reddit) do not fully support reparations. Then the question becomes which exact groups (if any) deserve reparations. Then it would be a question/topic about the size or limit of reparations. Only after those topics are clear, discussed, and you have a meaningful number of people supporting it can you discuss the exact way to pay the reparations.
To give you an example - imagine someone makes a CMV about the US giving to Israel rockets of type A instead of type B, and that type A is more "efficient". I am pretty sure that hundreds of people would jump on such a topic with an opinion that the US shouldn't give rockets to Israel at all, when type A vs. type B are just technicalities that don't matter.
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u/AdInfamous6290 18h ago
Nah, see that sounds like the kind left wing proceduralism that leads to bickering and absolutely no progress (no offense if you’re a leftie, I like a lot of your ideas but can’t get down with some of them and the political culture in general is pretty weird and toxic). It’s why I could never really see myself working with left wingers in that capacity, since every little detail needs to be hashed out for something to be done. There is preexisting, de facto legal precedent, what I’d like to see done is a return to those conditions, maybe a little further, and then make it de jure so the rules and guidelines around how the whole system works can (hopefully) be optimized to help more people than before.
I am not interested in a sociological dissection of the concept of reparations, an adjudication on what groups are groups, what groups deserve reparations and how those reparations should be dispensed by who. If that’s your cup of tea, all power to ya, but it’s not something that I find productive or interesting. I focus on specific problems and solutions on their own, I don’t have the time or patience to boil the whole pot at once.
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u/rober11529 23h ago
I don't think it's fair that "reparations" in this form are paid by people who spend lots of money in casinos, leaving all other non-gambling Americans to not contribute at all.
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u/AdInfamous6290 23h ago
It’s not perfect, but much of the system is already in place and generally accepted by American society. The only significant change I am actually proposing is to make it an exclusive industry of the reservations, regather than just one they have major representation in.
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u/RIP_Greedo 11∆ 20h ago
There is still the risk of avarice and corruption, but it is more likely that the funds will actually go towards developing the community
When has this ever happened with any casino?
This whole premise is so odd to me. You acknowledge that gambling and casinos create a whole host of social ills, and you seem to have a sort of sympathy for Native Americans and want them to do well - so how is it fair, equitable or even logical to exclusively concentrate all of those social ills into their communities? If you want to aid entrepreneurship on reservations, maybe start with a small business lending program or even a grant-making operation. The leap from that desire to doubling and tripling down on gambling makes no sense to me.
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u/AdInfamous6290 19h ago
Well I’m primarily willing to allow them there because most tribes have expressed wanting them, seeking capital to build them or have built them. And they would be even happier about having an exclusive monopoly right over it. Any tribe that doesn’t want them of course does ot have to have them.
The critical difference would be the ownership structure going to the tribal government, which some casinos already operate under, in exchange for this monopoly right. The community harm is diminished by the fact that any community members who engage in gambling are just recycling that money back into their community, it’s basically like a way of voluntarily paying taxes at that point. And some tribal governments will be better about it than others, but those decisions om budget allocation and governance ahould be handled by the tribes.
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u/Hefty-Match-3317 17h ago
Native American Casinos are owned only by the top clans. Per capital the average native american will never see the money that comes from these casinos. They do fund infrastructure for native americans but it has the same problems as billionaire philanthropy why do we need charity vs just a tax?
Vegas casinos are struggling. Their profit margins are carried by the biggest spenders. Native American casinos are not an exception to this.
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u/AdInfamous6290 17h ago
First section is addrsssed in the * section, in exchange for the state monopoly casinos would have to be owned by the tribal government itself.
Yeah, if you’re a fan of Las Vegas you’re really not going to like my opinions on that. I don’t give that city 50 more years before they run out of water and becomes completely untenable for the level development and amount of people who live there. If we kill the casinos, it forces people to leave for greener pastures in a more controlled fashion and earlier. The alternative is eventually just abandoning the city to ever increasingly strained water logistics that makes water either overly expensive or, even worse, scarcity and shortages.
It’s a fun town, but a big city in the middle of an already brutal desert going into a warmer and dryer climate isn’t exactly looking good for them long or even medium term. Imagine if one of the reservations becomes the new sin city, like how Las Vegas replaced Atlantic City, what an upswing for that tribe!
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u/Hefty-Match-3317 17h ago edited 17h ago
Reservations are wastelands just like Vegas and its a farther drive from major metropolitan areas like LA. If you are talking about specific Casinos, they are scattered everywhere yes, but reservations by default are undesirable land.
Tribal governments ARE dominated by members of the top families. They are as aristocratic as European nobles used to be. It's a council system but the insular nature means no 3rd party audits for fair play.
Tribes are also not monolithic and they don't share resources across the continent. One tribe can benefit more than others and imbalances exist.
The model already exists. So you would need to explain why at this moment the average Native American living on a reservation is poor when Casino money is already being invested into the land.
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u/AdInfamous6290 16h ago
I’m not saying this would change the entire reservation system, the social, cultural political and economic dynamics overall. The primary purpose of the proposal is reduce the overall amount of gambling in the US by imposing a geographic restriction, and the tribes get to benefit from this because of the historical and contemporary infrastructure and expertise. I mean if there is literally no other alternative for gambling (aside from potentially Canada or Mexico if they make changes to adapt), I feel like at least one of the reservations will be able to cash in on that in a pretty big way.
I don’t think the tribes should be combined into some big continental confederation (unless that’s something they decide to organize), as it stands I think the philosophy of decentralization “laboratories” like the states would serve the tribes well with the enhanced benefit of having a monopoly on gambling in the middle of the largest consumer economy in the world. There’d be more commercial competition over the increased customer base, which forces the tribal powers that be to spend on at the very least improving infrastructure for the casino, if not developing alternative services that would carve it a distinguishing niche. Some rez’s will do better than others, but overall I still feel like it’s to the mutual benefit of America and the tribes.
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u/Hefty-Match-3317 16h ago edited 15h ago
I think the core issue with what you believe to be a gambling problem is an economics problem.
The average American no longer has a clear path to upward financial mobility. When selling your labor is guaranteed to keep you where you are or even downwards gambling becomes the most rational method to escaping the poverty trap. That's why there has been a massive uptick in retail investors, meme stocks, etc.
Remember all success stories are survivor bias. The losers don't broadcast their deaths.
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u/tamman2000 2∆ 22h ago edited 20h ago
You lost me when you said it's inherently degenerate. You explained that it's spending money for adrenaline, but you didn't explain what makes that degenerate.
Is sky diving degenerate? Are roller coasters degenerate?
Should the US be a free country? Where do you get off telling free people where they can do things they enjoy that aren't harming people who aren't consensually involved? (Even if the activity was inherently degenerate, which... It's not)
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u/AdInfamous6290 22h ago
It’s degenerate because it is wasteful, it is degenerate because it is destructive, it is degenerate because it is addictive, it is degenerate because it degenerates our society. I believe government has a role in making our society better, and I believe that in doing so we need to find compromises and agreements in the social contract to balance freedom with the needs of a functioning, pleasant and prospering society.
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u/tamman2000 2∆ 22h ago edited 20h ago
It's entertainment for those who enjoy it but do not have issues with problem gambling (addiction, etc).
That is not degenerate, therefore it's not inherently degenerate
It's your value judgements being forced on the masses.
I'm sure there's something that you enjoy that is objectively harmful to many, but society let's you enjoy it because the social contract values self determination
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u/AdInfamous6290 22h ago
Very much of what I enjoy as entertainment is regulated through law and implicit social contract. Be it a movie, with the dizzying array of rules and regulations that go into the making of a movie, the distribution of a movie, the specifications of a movie theater and structure of streaming services. I enjoy alcohol, and am extremely happy that distillers and brewers have to follow laws and regulations to ensure certain safety and quality standards. I am a fan of my 2nd amendment rights, and am happy I live in a state with sensible reforms to ensure wife beaters and psychopaths don’t have access to guns.
A balance can be achieved. Maybe my specific proposal seems too arbitrary or overly restrictive to you, but historically its been largely accepted by the vast majority of Americans up until recently.
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u/Conscious-Card5611 22h ago
Native American reservations are almost entirely in the west half of the USA. Creating a divide between where there's legal gambling on this basis seems like it'd create more problems than it solves.
Gambling is also highly correlated with drinking. Setting people up to drink and drive home a fair distance will create hazardous road conditions in those areas.
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u/AdInfamous6290 22h ago
That’s not true, I think you underestimate how many (smaller) reservations exist in the east. Looking at a map you see all the big splotches out west, but there are small annexes throughout the north and south east. There should be more, but that’s for another CMV.
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u/straightuptexas 22h ago
This has the puritan spirit of prohibition and would have just as bad results. Gambling should be legal in every state so every state can reap benefits of tax revenue generated by it.
Idk, you may want to prop up the underworld but I’d rather people do it in a free, legal way.
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u/AdInfamous6290 22h ago
Did you miss the entire part where every region and most states would have an area explicitly carved out for the activity? But no, fuck the states getting gambling revenue they shouldn’t even run the powerball. States can keep their booze, cigarette and other discretionary taxes, let the American Indians benefit from American society for once.
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u/AgentCoulson2 17h ago
If gambling is wrong and/or harmful enough to justify banning, then there shouldn't be exemptions. And if it isn't, then it should not be banned at all.
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u/AdInfamous6290 17h ago
Nah, compromise is often necessary and desirable as opposed to extremist black and white solutions. You can be against something but recognize that it can cause more harm to ban outright, while still being intolerable without regulation and restriction.
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u/AgentCoulson2 16h ago
You are not advocating regulation however; you are advocating banning it anywhere except for a handful of places, in which it would not be subject to US regulation at all.
You mentioned in another comment that you viewed this as a positive by making gambling harder to access, but that is entirely arbitrary. A gambling addict who lives down the street from an Indian Casino would retain totally unfettered access, while a responsible gambler in another state may need to drive hours, or even fly. You're not mitigating harm, you are just placing arbitrary geographical limitations on who is harmed.
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u/AdInfamous6290 16h ago
Well having discussed it more with the commenter whi I delta’d, I’m coming to realize from the evidence and testimonials they provided that it’s the sort of thing that would also need to be regulated and structured as part of the monopoly rights deal, both in how the casinos operate for patrons and how they are governed and profits distributed on the tribal level.
As for the arbitrary and geographic biasing, yup that’s just a part of the way the reservation system is set up in America and an aspect I’ve still gotta accept if I’m to stick to the broad strokes of my original idea. Opening more tribal land is an interesting idea someone else had, but either leads to leasing agreements that sees money leaking out of the community or the extremely complicated process of transferring US land to a tribe. There’s a lot of problems and controversies there, so it seems like keeping the tribal lands and accepting the lopsided distribution just makes the most sense logistically. The relative isolation of the tribal lands helps create that friction, and I haven’t crunched the numbers but I have a feeling more people will have access to gambling more restricted than those whose access remains unchanged or increases, so overall the reduction is a net positive. But it’s not particularly fair, I recognize that.
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u/Jordak_keebs 6∆ 23h ago
Should the government force existing casinos to shut down if they are not operated on a reservation?
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u/AdInfamous6290 23h ago
Yes. Las Vegas might be an exception, but it’s skating on thin fucking ice.
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u/Particular_Cry_7078 23h ago
Why should Indian reservation casinos get an exemption?
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u/AdInfamous6290 23h ago
They already have been and do, it is a widely accepted concept within a democratic society. And, as is the second biggest point, it serves as makeshift reparations.
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u/Particular_Cry_7078 23h ago
Well I know they do. I’m asking why should they
Gambling is legal right now and you’re advocating to change that, why not make it illegal on Indian reservations too?
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u/Thegodofgoldfish 12h ago
Here's the problems with making gambling illegal:
You'd need to have a fine line somewhere, but its hard to pinpoint where gambling stops and casual betting begins. Casinos are obvious but does that make sports betting gambling too? If so then is something like kalshi similar since you might win/lose money, and if you make winning/losing money the definition you start getting into the "stock trading is gambling" territory, but would that also make insurance gambling since you're paying someone for an event that might not happen? There are so many other examples of this like coin flip games, loot boxes in video games, crypto, the list goes on.
When you make something legal, you can control it by making laws around it, when you illegalize it it becomes harder to control as laws related to it no longer apply(eg. minimum gambling age). This means that something similar to what happened during prohibition would happen where there would be heavy resistance, and since gambling doesn't harm people uninvolved in it, it would also be in a spot similar to piracy where its illegal but the harm done is less than the cost to track down a prosecute the violators of the law.
Casinos are just like any other form of entertainment, you spend money for a few hours of fun. Its just like going to a theme park, you get no monetary value back out but you got a few hours of fun in exchange. Gambling is similar, people spend money for a few hours of fun at a poker table or a slot machine or any other gambling activity.
Lastly, you have to prove why taking away people's right of choice to gamble is worth it to stop the harms of gambling, many other equally bad or worse activities are perfectly legal in the US as well, such as but not limited to: Tobacco, Alcohol, Vapes, Marijuana, Lottery tickets, Tianeptine, Kratom, etc.
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u/everydaywinner2 1∆ 16h ago
If gambling is so bad, then why is it okay for American Indians? Doesn't that make them the bad guys for encouraging and propagating the bad thing (gambling)?
Also, in my opinion, if something is illegal for everyone, it should be illegal for everyone in a country. Two tiered justice is never a good thing. It only leads to a mistrust in the justice system, and a toxic envy of the people who can get away with things.
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u/showmethemundy 22h ago
If I’m gonna lose money, and I’m gonna lose money, I don’t want to do it in Las Vegas to a bunch of corporate businessmen. I would rather go to an Indian casino and lose it to the Native Americans. You know? On account of my forefathers systematically murdered them years ago. Which looking back on it, was way out of line. Way out of line!!!
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u/matchfromthedead 8h ago
congratulations, illegal bookmaking is higher than it was in the 50s and the mob is probably back.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ 18h ago
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