r/MensLib • u/TemperedGlassTeapot • 19d ago
"my husband has no friends"
Yet another male loneliness piece. Like many, it seemed heavy on anecdotes and light on data or any analysis of structural issues. Maybe people here can suggest better reading on the topic?
https://www.thecut.com/article/my-husband-has-no-friends.html
Archive.is: https://archive.is/20260915174213/https://www.thecut.com/article/my-husband-has-no-friends.html
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u/Overhazard10 19d ago
I have two recommendations, one book and one article.
The book is The Lonely Century by Noorena Hertz, now most people recommend Robert Putnam's Bowling Alone, and while I haven't read it yet and I don't doubt it's salience, it's over 25 years old. The Lonely Century is more contemporary. Hertz talks about how our culture is quite literally designed to keep us all apart because of technology, the erosion of civil institutions, the lack of third spaces, changes in the office, migration to cities, the layout of those cities, and decades of neoliberal policies dating back to the days of Reagan and Thatcher, have all combined into the Atomization Megazord keeping us lonely and miserable.
The second is this article by slate that I was surprised didn't get posted here. https://archive.ph/xCRT4
It discusses how the gender gap between lonely men and lonely women is actually pretty small and that socioeconomic factors, like being a gig worker, not having a college degree, or being unemployed factor in way more than whether or not a guy is listening to Joe Rogan or Andrew Tate.
It's incredibly insidious how the loneliness crisis is gendered and framed solely as a male problem, and that every man who struggles with loneliness is an angry redpiller. Relationships, communities, friendships, are all built on surplus time which fewer and fewer people have. Maybe I'm naive, but I do not think the redpill is as powerful as the internet believes it is, these guys are not taking the redpill, they're taking zzzquil, because they're exhausted and they have to go to work in the morning.
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u/IndependentNew7750 19d ago
You're absolutely spot on but I would go a step further regarding loneliness as a gendered issue. The gender gap isn't small, it's not existent. Even the Cut article in this post cites a study that says there is no gender difference.
As public debate and discussion over the status of men in America continues, some have raised concerns about men’s struggles with loneliness. A new Pew Research Center survey finds that, compared with women, men don’t report that they feel lonely more often or have fewer close friends. However, men do seem to turn to their networks less often for social connection and emotional support.
I can't actually find a recent and reputable study that says men report loneliness more than women.
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u/TemperedGlassTeapot 19d ago
Thanks! I did read that article but wasn't sure if it was okay to post here. I should check out the lonely century and bowling alone.
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u/IndependentNew7750 19d ago
I've seen so far too many articles about gender and loneliness where the author cites multiple studies that directly contradict their conclusions. Here, the author is essentially claiming that men don't have friends outside of their wives and it's detrimental to their relationship because the wife has to shoulder the responsibility of being her husband's best friend. But the study she cited from the Journal of Happiness Studies literally says the opposite.
Married individuals whose spouse is their best friend have higher life satisfaction than those who do not, even when controlling for age, gender, income, health limitations and previous life satisfaction. The same results hold for those who are cohabiting. When the effects are analyzed by gender, the well-being benefit of being married to one’s best friend appears much higher for women than for men, although on average fewer women than men regard their spouse as their best friend.
And then the author cites a Pew study about loneliness that directly contradicts most of the anecdotes and conclusions she makes throughout the article:
As public debate and discussion over the status of men in America continues, some have raised concerns about men’s struggles with loneliness. A new Pew Research Center survey finds that, compared with women, men don’t report that they feel lonely more often or have fewer close friends. However, men do seem to turn to their networks less often for social connection and emotional support.
It's almost as if the author read these studies, didn't like the results, and then used anecdotes to fill the holes. It's so lazy.
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u/Reynor247 19d ago
It is interesting that the piece is mostly anecdotes. Personally for me I have a lot of friends and I have to help my wife manage her social calendar. Which seems to be the norm for most of my friends relationships
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u/songsforatraveler 19d ago
That’s been my experience and the experience of several of my friends, even the introverts. The women are less social and more dependent on their male partners for socialization in my group.
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u/Reynor247 19d ago
I wonder if it's generational. I'm 29 and it seems like the people in this article are much older
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u/soonerfreak 19d ago
I do think Gen z and younger is better at it. Millennials and up are much more like the article based on my experience.
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u/songsforatraveler 19d ago
I am firmly millennial, def isn’t my experience or the experience of my peers.
I do think it is very easy for men to disappear socially, though. It’s a fear of mine, for sure.
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u/soonerfreak 19d ago
It's just as easy for men and women to disappear as someone that's watched it happen to both in my social circle. But men do a worse job both asking for help and reaching out.
But also is the male loneliness epidemic real or are all of us actually maintaining and running our own social life?
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u/Montyg12345 17d ago
I think Millenial men were comparatively much more socially connected at the same ages though. Men’s social life falls off the cliff in early 30s when the friendship structures that men gravitate towards become extremely difficult to maintain or create.
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u/songsforatraveler 19d ago
Maybe, I’m 36 and haven’t really seen the stereotypical lonely man. I see an entire society that is disconnected from each other, tbh, as a result of capitalism, exploitation and Covid.
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u/Thegrumbliestpuppy 19d ago
Its definitely not the norm for most of the country, in Millenials/Gen X/Boomers, so it really could be a generational social shift. Or you could just have an uncommon group of friends, its hard to know without data.
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u/auriferously 18d ago
(Woman here) My husband is the social butterfly in our relationship. I'm not an introvert and I do have friends/hobbies, but he's the one who frequently is introducing me to his friends and their wives, etc.
It can be a little challenging, because there is often this social expectation that the women will arrange the social outings, so his friends' wives are always texting me and trying to make plans, but he's the one who is more motivated and knows them better. I try to redirect the conversation into a group text so that he can take over the planning, but it's a weirdly entrenched norm that the women will make the plans regardless of how well they know each other (in my experience, anyway). My husband is totally willing to take that responsibility off my plate, but he can't control how other couples operate.
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u/amadgadfly 19d ago
That was my experience in a long-term relationship as well. I'm not a social butterfly, but she wasn't interested in ANYTHING. I was so desperate to find her friends that I started introducing her to random women I knew.
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u/mathematics1 19d ago
Your story sounds pretty similar to several of the anecdotes in the article. If you don't mind me asking, why were you desperate to find her friends? If she never found any, would that have been fine, or would that have been a deal breaker for you (regardless of any other issues)?
For reference, here's one of the quotes from a husband in the article after a dinner conversation: "Nice guy, but I'm exhausted from all that talking. Never again." That man doesn't sound lonely at all, and my attitude towards dinner conversations is very similar to his. Was that similar to your ex's experience, or did she seem lonely?
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u/amadgadfly 19d ago
Excellent question! She was extremely lonely and bored all day everyday. Unfortunately, she sort of viewed it as my job as her boyfriend to fill the emptiness for her, but I had my own life and friends so it was overwhelming to me. She started to resent me for not being around enough. But I literally mean it when I say she wasn't interested in anything. She had some old hobbies I constantly tried to get her back into (she's a fantastic artist), but she just didn't want to. It was either spend time with me or sleep in bed. She was receiving mental health treatment for years during this time as well, both a therapist and a psychiatrist for medication.
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u/No-Lab4815 19d ago
This was spot on: Simon, an independent management consultant who works remotely in New Jersey, blames his work — both the grind and the absence of office culture — for his own isolation. “I think the hustle is what keeps people from being friends. But I also think the hustle is the only way to find friends. I spend a lot of time talking to Claude,” he says. Simon’s lack of buddies is a hot topic in his marriage. That he and his wife don’t have children, he adds, also deprives them of opportunities to socialize with fellow parents.
I work remotely as a GovTech salesman and really don't like talking much outside of work. Recently married with no children so also don't have much in common with other parents. Soon to be 36 for context.
Am forcing myself to a network event tomorrow since my wife is out of town with her bestie.
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u/someguynamedcole 19d ago
“Networking event” vs “bestie”, the latter of these social contexts involves far more attunement than the former.
It’s often stressful and exhausting to talk to people you don’t know that well where there isn’t a lot of pre existing mutual understanding. Particularly if one’s actual close friends are unavailable or live too far away.
The article mostly discusses men socializing with their kids’ fathers and wives’ friends’ husbands. These people might be perceived by these men as being a half step up from strangers. And while marriage and parenting has replaced religion in terms of delineating social roles and prescribed life narratives, not everyone strongly identifies as a husband/wife/father/mother.
It’s also worth interrogating whether or not the LifeScript of marriage/house/kids works universally for all adults. If people could live more authentic lives it would be easier to build real connections with others.
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u/signaltrapper 19d ago
As a childfree adult who isn’t too concerned about marriage, it kinda sucks out here trying to figure out a life there is no real blueprint for. I still feel like I’m looked at as fodder to make people with family’s lives easier.
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u/WackTheHorld 19d ago
Both the part of the article you quoted and your example don't mention what your non-work interests are. Usually I comment under these posts that people need to find others that share their interests, and go meet up with them. Connection will follow.
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u/musicismydeadbeatdad 19d ago
This has been my route back into community after everyone I knew left or became a hermit post COVID. Props to my local board game and tabletop RPG communities and particularly the spaces that open themselves up for us.
Where you're going to meet is an underrated problem here but tough to discuss because it's so contextual.
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u/mathematics1 19d ago
This is exactly what I'm doing. Every week I have a board game group, a community choir rehearsal, and get to volunteer with kids at a local organization.
Can you clarify what you meant by your last sentence (connection will follow)? I have lots of casual friends/acquaintances who I see repeatedly at these activities, and I enjoy doing those activities with other people who share my interests. We don't talk about much outside of the activity, though. For the people I see at my board game meetup, I know lots about which board games they enjoy, but very little about any other part of their lives even though I've known them for years. I don't feel lonely and don't feel a strong need for more connection, though. Is that what you were picturing when you said "connection will follow", or did you have something different in mind?
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u/WackTheHorld 19d ago edited 17d ago
I was referring to any level of connection. The level of connection will be different for everyone, of course, but with a little effort it can be found. Even something small can help with loneliness.
Most of my "real" friends have been found through my interests, with rock climbing giving me the deepest friendships. I have acquaintances that I enjoy hanging out with but would never arrange anything with, to people who are called aunt and uncle by my daughter.
I don't know if I would have any real friends if I didn't have a "hobby" (quotations because climbing is not a hobby, it's a life-defining activity for me), because I don't see much use in pursuing friendship without a shared interest (the more life-defining the better).
That's why I comment in these posts about loneliness and tell people to find others with the same interests.
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u/thelastunicorn17 19d ago
Wondering about that too...I also have weekly activities and people I talk with regularly at my sports and hobbies, but I haven't made one friend since moving to a new city over a year ago. I'm doing everything I "should" be doing but connection isn't following.
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u/roving1 19d ago
Third spaces are increasingly difficult to find, especially if one doesn't drink.
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u/No-Lab4815 19d ago
especially if one doesn't drink
I'm in the DC area and have cut back on drinking immensely. That's the number 1 pastime around here.
Plus I'm into cyberpunk/sci-fi and extremely obscure underground rap/boom bap that leans towards NYC (where I'm from originally).
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u/mathematics1 19d ago
Are you talking about your own situation, or is that a general comment on society?
I've found that if you live near a reasonably sized city, third spaces for casual socialization can be hard to find, but groups for a specific interest are usually much easier. I found my local board game group through Meetup, and there are lots of different board game groups in my area.
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u/lokregarlogull 19d ago
Yeah I see that, no chance you can take a chance at a local boardgame event, or hobby and see if there are any nice people?
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u/that_guys_posse 19d ago edited 19d ago
Some decent stuff in there but, IME, a lot of partners take it upon themselves to 'fix' this issue despite the 'problem' partner not really wanting to be 'fixed'.
I also think there's almost an expectation that a lot of women have (sometimes unconsciously) that the man will move on from his 'single days friends' and will just join her friend group. I was in a relationship like this and have heard similar experiences from lots of other guys in the past (but it's still, obviously, anecdotal) and I'd go to the get-togethers and talk and play nice and all that but never really clicked with the guys I met enough to speak with any of them outside of those events. There is the expectation, for whatever reason, that guys can just be friends with any guy and when that doesn't happen it's made out to be a failure on the male partner's part.
I mention this mostly because I feel like the article almost touches on it at times--women talking about how they're losing out on group invites because the husband, basically, doesn't click with those people. Personally, I don't think it's very fair to make it out to be a failure on the husband's part in those situations--sometimes people just don't click.
But even in the article it's mentioned in a way that makes it sound like it's the husband's fault for not clicking with the other husbands (TBH speaking about the men like they're toddlers being pushed onto a playdate doesn't help and really only adds to it).
The article touches on how women are able to make friends through things related to their kids and, while many men absolutely need to make more efforts to be involved in their kid's lives--I don't feel like the article acknowledges that by virtue of many of these spaces being, traditionally, female spaces (PTA was mentioned); a male might feel unwelcome in them. While I fully understand and even agree with the idea behind 'the bear' thing--I'd say that stuff like that also makes it clear that men (understandably or not) can be viewed as a potential predator especially when they're coming into spaces that are traditionally for women. At the least, there is an impression that men are not wanted there/they will be upsetting 'the balance' or whatever and impressions like that matter (I've known plenty of women who refused to go into spaces that are traditionally considered male spaces due to these kinds of impressions--so these things matter and should be understandable). Again, I'm not saying men can't help out with their kids stuff--they absolutely should and studies have been showing that men have vastly increased their time with their kids so I hope that continues--but I also get why men would feel like they're unwelcome/unwanted in some spaces and that's even ignoring the idea that other men won't be there (but that was touched on in the article).
TBH, at the end of the day, I think it isn't as simple as 'why can't men just do what us women do?' As someone who has been trying to do better 'maintenance' on the friendships I have--it's hard. My friends agree that we should be putting in more effort but, thus far, it's been pretty one sided. The author uses the metaphor of keeping a fire going but if you're the only one blowing the embers...you've got to sleep eventually and if the other person isn't helping then that fire will dim and you can't just magically change all men.
I get that something needs to be done but it seems like third spaces making a return would be the easiest and most realistic option.
But, honestly, it's not something I really have a good solution for, either--I can only really say that making friends as a man is hard and maintaining them is awfully tough too; even if you're willing.
EDIT: After taking a moment to think more about it--I'll admit that I find it a bit bothersome that the article doesn't really spend that much time discussing the men in these scenarios or the negative effects they're feeling from the lack of friends and much more focus is on, basically, how these husbands are cramping their wives' style. TBH just really brings me back around to the first point I shared about there being an expectation on men.
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u/exarkann 19d ago
My wife's closest girl friend really wants me to be friends with her boyfriend (mostly to fit into her view of how things should work), but he's just not the kind of guy I want to spend time with, and I get the vibe from him that he's not interested in me either. Fortunately my wife has my back on this and she has told her friend to stop trying to make it a thing.
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u/that_guys_posse 19d ago
Sounds like you've got yourself a good egg.
Yeah, I don't entirely get where this comes from but I've seen it quite a bit before--some women just seem to have this assumption that men's friendships aren't as deep as theirs and, therefore, they should click with anyone and if they don't then it's just the man being obstinate.12
u/signaltrapper 19d ago
This reminds me of the assumption I see a lot of parents make that kids will just get along because they are kids. Got stuck on a lot of play dates that went horribly just because my mom wanted to hang with the other kid’s mom.
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u/detentionbarn 10d ago
This is exactly what it's like, the baseless assumption that husbands will be friends just because wives are. To me, it feels infantilizing and simplistic.
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u/amanhasnoname4now 18d ago
I've brought this up in other thread in here but I feel it needs repeating. For at least a generation men have been told to be more present, due more around the house, help out with the kids. But also have enough time and energy to maintain friendships. Where is all that time supposed to come from. I know in my friend group the husbands time is almost always taken up by activities their wives have planned and the are often guilt tripped when trying to do things with just the guys
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u/detentionbarn 10d ago
I know I'm late to the game, but this post resonates a lot for me.
When our kids were young, we met a lot of other parents at kid events of all kinds. Out of those parents, I enjoyed spending time with maybe 2 of the dads and only one friendship lasted til the kids entered high school. All the other dads were socially disengaged and/or they bored the living shit out of me.
There has been some conflict with my wife for declining some group events years ago, but for the most part she understands completely now. I am not in need of playdates like some shy 10 year old. I have plans with friends consistently 2x per week, and that's in between the creative projects I'm involved in weekly that often put me in the company of people I truly enjoy.
We of course socialize as couples but I am not hesitant to bow out of events when over time the husband contingency bores the crap out of me.
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u/mathematics1 19d ago
One of the anecdotes in the article is of a man who comes home from dinner with another guy and says "Nice guy, but I’m exhausted from all that talking. Never again." That man doesn't sound particularly lonely; he sounds like he prefers solitude over a dinner conversation. Several of the other men in the article sound the same to me.
I also dislike dinner conversations and social events where the point is just to be social. I prefer doing things I actually enjoy. Some of those interests are things I get to do with other people; some I do by myself, and that's fine. I'm not particularly lonely, as far as I can tell.
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u/twelvis 19d ago
In my case, I can certainly talk to almost anyone, but I often don't really get much out of the conversation. Often people just complain or refuse to open up about themselves. Lately, I'm finding this is happening with many of my close guy friends. After a while, I really don't have the energy to listen to someone complain for hours about the same thing they've been complaining about for months or years.
Dinner is the issue. Those guys should have done some sort of activity. Sometimes it's great just to be in someone's company even if you don't have much to say.
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u/Jazzlike-Basket-6388 18d ago
My personal anecdote. I'm 47 and I haven't figured out how to both have friends and a partner. Every woman I've dated has created a wedge between me and my friends and loaded me up so much with their social activities and projects and such that I've had nothing left. When my friends get in a relationship, our time together falls off a cliff. We try, but it is hard to catch them free, then the cancel. Or we meet up, and something comes up with their wife, and they cut it short.
And what is extra frustrating is I've had multiple wives of friends have this convo with me about how their husband is lonely and they really pick up when I hang up and how we should hang out more. And I tell them I'm lonely and want to hang out me. And I think things are going to change. Then I try to plan something like watching the game and they are like, "Sorry, I'm watching it with my wife and her sister and husband." Or whatever else. I literally texed a friend yesterday to grab food and he excitedly said yes and suggested a day in late October. I said sure, but there is a 99% chance something with supercede that.
That probably comes off as blaming women and that isn't my intention. But it has been a recurring theme.
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u/WackTheHorld 19d ago
"He goes on to explain that between work during the week and tending to his sons’“nonstop activities,” he can’t prioritize palling around with his peers."
I've seen this with a few people I know. They enroll their kid(s) in so many activities, nobody has time for anything. Which IMO does a disservice to both the parents and kids. Neither has free time.
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u/TemperedGlassTeapot 19d ago
Unfortunately, intensive parenting works: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/intensive-parenting-kids-happiness-health/671782/
(There's a bit of an argument over terms here because some people say intensive parenting means pushing your kids into lots of extracurricular activities whether they want them or not and the author here is saying intensive parenting to include offering the opportunity to do those activities whether or not they stick.)
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u/WackTheHorld 17d ago
That article describes intensive parenting as far more than just extracurricular activities. All I'm saying is that some parents need to dial back their kids activities so they're not busy every single day. Parents need time for their own interests too.
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u/exarkann 19d ago edited 19d ago
Nearly all of my close male friendships fell apart because as the layers peeled back it turns out those guys and I just had conflicting values that couldn't be reconciled. I will not be friends with abusers of animals, with people who can't respect my other friends, with people who can't stand not being center of attention at all times. Those relationships exploded and it was painful and not something I ever want to go through again.
I used to rave a lot, and I identified as a raver. I was part of a sound system crew and it was awesome, I got to meet new people and the guy I worked with was a great friend, but he moved to North Carolina from Kentucky to be with his girlfriend and our friendship just kinda fizzled out. I even went out there to help out with the sound at a few parties but he was distant and the bond was gone.
My oldest male relationship isn't close at all because he flat out refuses to open up. It's shared activities or nothing, and right now that's ok because the pain I felt when my other relationships fell apart really isn't worth the effort of building deeper connection. Even that surface level relationship has taken damage because he has thrown himself into activities I'm not interested in, for example we Iike camping but I have zero desire to spend time and money on equipping for a full on backpacking trip.
It doesn't help that most of my current interests are solo. I don't need anyone to help with the electronics tinkering I do, I play single player video games in a way that bore anyone watching, I'm not really into movies or television shows these days at all. Rave, as I knew it, is dead in my area. There aren't any dance clubs here anymore either.
I only played multiplayer games as a way to hang with friends but honestly I have zero desire to get back into shit like Call of Duty again, it's just too toxic. I don't like getting angry at video games. Where I live the dominant form of male bonding is sports and I couldn't care less about sports, even if it meant meeting new people.
My wife and I really were best friends for many many years, and we still are close friends, but I would say that I am my own best friend these days. My desire for new friends of any sort has dramatically decreased, and I no longer get any pleasure out of being around groups of people. In fact, most of the time social outings are just ways to make myself frustrated with other people's cringy behavior and much of the time is spent internally screaming. It's either that or I feel like there's a layer of glass between me and everyone else, something that keeps me from enjoying company like a normal person. Either way I feel more calm and content when I'm alone.
After a second reading of the article, I feel I have to comment on the author's classism and sexisim. They obviously come from a position of wealth, which provides social opportunities that lower classes don't have time or resources to engage in, and it seems they haven't considered that. There's also the undercurrent of sexisim, but that's a little harder for me to pick out specific examples of, there's just kinda the vibe that she holds some contempt for men in general.
I didn't like the comments about your spouse not being your ride or die, why did you get married if that person isn't the one you want to spend the majority of your time with? The idea of not being close friends with your spouse doesn't make any sense to me.
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u/Bobcatluv 19d ago
>I feel I have to comment on the author’s classism and sexism
Yeah, the site on which this article was published, “The Cut,” started out as a fashion blog and is part of New York Magazine. The writer is also a screenwriter and her last story in that magazine was an interview with Olivia Wilde.
The way she describes making friends through her kids’ activities and being a classroom mom for five years doesn’t hold up to the average mom’s experiences, much less a working mom. A lot of the women I know, especially with young kids, are isolated and not living it up every weekend at kids’ birthday parties. Even when they do attend parties, much of the time is spent minding children and running everything.
Regarding the writer’s mentality, I found these bits to be illuminating:
“Simon and his wife don’t have children, he adds, which deprives them of opportunities to socialize with fellow parents.”
“An antisocial husband is a liability in a couple when it comes to neighborhood parties and group vacations. I have seen women slip off the social circuit because their husbands don’t want to join in on the fun.”
And then there’s her whole diatribe about “wing wives” literally pushing their husbands to make friends with other men at social engagements. Like, my spouse and I just talk to everyone in the group and don’t separate by gender.
It’s a pet peeve of mine when the writings and experiences of the privileged are upheld as a universal truth for the rest of us. There’s a kernel of truth about the difficulty in making friends as an adult, but the specifics of what she complains about sounds petite bourgeoisie, imo. Like, she doesn’t care that her husband could be lonely, she cares about how it impacts her social life,
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u/nel-E-nel 19d ago
Agree that they rarely talk to the men in these pieces, instead it's a series of disgruntled women complaining about their husbands. Maybe they are fine being loners?
I think a connection that is rarely interrogated is how often we see narratives of men being - rightfully so - called out for being awful (homophobic, sexist, etc), but then get thrown under the bus for not having more men friends. Maybe those loners don't like hanging around awful men, and don't have a lot of options where they live?
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u/MjolnirPants 19d ago
I used to not have any friends.
It wasn't that I had too much trouble making friends. It was a combination of things. A lot of the friends of my youth are dead (a combination of growing up in a really rough, poor neighborhood and taking a dangerous job in the military right before the GWOT kicked off). A lot more of them have vanished into the ether, either living halfway across the country (or world) with families of their own, or having lost touch with all of our mutuals.
But I also have some pretty eclectic interests. I like camping, shooting, hiking, woodworking and knifemaking. I like muscle cars and guns and other typical guy stuff. I like video games and movies and other popular stuff. But I also like synthwave and hyperpop and black metal. I also like building and working on computers. I like reading about science. I used to like editing Wikipedia.
It's hard to find someone I share more than one or two interests with. I can hold my own in a lot of conversations, but it's hard to make friends when you've only got one topic of conversation you're both interested in.
My ex-wife used to bring me with her to hang out with her friends and their husbands, but like I said, it was hard to make friends with them. I legitimately am not a fan of hanging out with a bunch of boring middle-aged white people, so it was hard for them to get me to engage, and when I did, the fact that I'm kind of a weirdo who constantly makes references to dead or missing friends from my youth didn't make it any easier.
And of course, I had a full-time job where I had to work overtime regularly to keep the bills paid, and I had two kids to care for, and I was going to school part-time. And I had to make some time for my hobbies, or I turned into an absolute asshole. So except for the occasional phone call to an old buddy, I didn't really have time to go do anything with anyone, even if they had invited me, which of course they hadn't.
I have friends now, but that's a story in and of itself that doesn't really relate to men's issues, except tangentially.
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u/PathOfTheAncients 19d ago
I have had a lot of guy friends I lost or grew apart from because they started treating me as an obligation and over time that was enough to make me stop trying. Very frequently these were guys who were married and their wives would alway eventually reach out to me asking me to try to hangout with their husbands again because of how lonely they had become. I used to be open to that but I'm not really anymore. I miss those guys but I now tell myself that if we are friends you should like me and want to talk to or hangout with me.
I suspect those are the same type of guys driving the loneliness epidemic and who these articles are ultimately about. It just seems like for a lot of guys the idea of putting effort into relationships at all starts to feel like a burden and they stop.
I have also noticed that the guys I see doing this often have very "traditional" marriages where their wife does a lot for them, including making plans. I personally think this contributes to them starting to think of social effort as a burden and avoiding it.
Personally I love having a entire life of friends now who all enthusiastically want to hear from and see me (and I feel the same about them). Making plans is so simple when people aren't trying to avoid you while also claiming to be your friend.
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u/Fed_Express 19d ago
I feel like the male loneliness issue is becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy in my own life.
Just reading all of these articles day after day after day is it's own pain.
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u/mathematics1 19d ago
Do you feel lonely? You can't fix the societal issues on your own, but it's possible to meet and spend time with more people yourself if you want to.
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u/Fed_Express 17d ago
I'm not exactly sure.
On my days off from work, everything seems fine until I encounter an article or video talking about how men are in crisis, lonely, undateable, etc. then my mood instantly plummets.
It feels like some of my problems are being generated or manufactured, in a way. Like someone is telling me to feel bad because men are struggling, etc.
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u/mathematics1 17d ago
Your life doesn't sound like it's in crisis, at least from an outside observer's perspective. Do you make enough at your job to pay your bills and live at the standard you expect, and is your mental health stable for now? You also mentioned "undateable"; do you feel that way about yourself? If you're not sure whether you feel lonely, those might be easier questions to answer.
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u/Fed_Express 15d ago
The answer would be yes. I think it does affect me but it doesn't seem to be a crisis situation like it is for some men.
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u/throwaway135629 18d ago
Before I read the article, my first thought was actually, "so how did these guys get married?" Because I feel like in the current dating zeitgeist, for men struggling, there's a big emphasis on your own platonic social circle first, call it "social proof" or "having a life" or whatever. That's all fine, it just started to make more sense when the article explained many of these men at one time did have more friends and were smoother socially.
I'm somewhat younger than the men described in this article, and single, so I can't relate exactly to the stage they're at. I have a handful of longtime friends all over the country who I don't see super regularly, and some local more surface level acquaintances through local groups. I guess now that I'm thinking about it, I kind of have lasered in on dating the last few months because having a partner is like, as fucked as this sounds, a socially acceptable way to make a best friend with a particular script.
There's no real script for "hey we hang out at run club/bar trivia/board game club but like, I think you're cool and wanna hang out with you and be your friend," I don't even know what I would DO with a person in that case. I know that's like, totally the wrong way to think about everything (though i never claim to think about things the right way here), but when I look inward that is definitely a piece of the desire that's there.
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u/Borigh 19d ago
Jesus Christ, what pablum.
Look, I work from home and live hours from any of my friends. It's lonely. Also, that's fine. First, I genuinely like my wife, in addition to loving her, and we are each other's best friend. (It's incredibly sad that most women can't say that about their husbands). Second, it is perfectly alright to enjoy alone time and not prioritize making new friends.
I wish I got to hang with the boys like I did in high school, but I also wish I was a billionaire - some things are not entirely within ones control.
The "male loneliness epidemic" is guys who want friends but can't get them - either because the atomization and commoditization of everything in late capitalism prevents socialization, or because they are a shitty hang and don't work on themselves.
The answer to the first is political; the answer to the second is therapy.
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u/soonerfreak 19d ago
Someone who is unorganized with their social life is also going to be doing a bad job maintaining one.
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u/No_Somewhere_2610 19d ago
Maybe to an extent, though we are still talking about 2 different things
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u/roving1 19d ago
I've not seen that since my mother's generation. Even then it was heavily influnced by being in a low population rural area with only one car.
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u/No_Somewhere_2610 19d ago
Okay and I have so what now
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u/roving1 19d ago
Nothing, other than population density and access to transportation has a significant impact on social connections.
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u/No_Somewhere_2610 19d ago
That is true but how does it relate?
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u/roving1 19d ago
In the community I'm speaking about the lack of non-drinking, non-smoking, non-drug using 3rd spaces is a major issue. It is one, only one, factor driving young adults out of the area and making it very difficult to recruit new workers into the area. Gangs, etc are a major issue. Kids will often just say "I was bored."
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u/MensLib-ModTeam 19d ago
Be the men’s issues conversation you want to see in the world. Be proactive in forming a productive discussion. Constructive criticism of our community is fine, but if you mainly criticize our approach, feminism, or other people's efforts to solve gender issues, your post/comment will be removed. Posts/comments solely focused on semantics rather than concepts are unproductive and will be removed. Shitposting and low-effort comments and submissions will be removed.
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u/Sensitive_Check_6956 19d ago
The article was annoying because it was reflecting on a broad transformation of family life, work and commenting as if it was a personal emotional pathology.
Feminism has been a remarkably successful movement in the Western world. Domestic labour is now much more even, which is completely fair and just. Anyone who watched a baby boomer father opt out of family responsibilities would no doubt agree. But there are clearly second-order effects, as described in this article.
The article is annoying because instead of asking- Why are male friendship networks weakening?, the discussion becomes - Why won't this particular man do the emotional work necessary to maintain friendships?
The husband's situation reflects structural changes rather than personal failure. If the old institutions that produced male friendship have eroded, and the time once available for maintaining them has been redirected into work and family, then telling individual men to "be more vulnerable" or "do the work" may be a partial explanation at best.
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u/MensLib-ModTeam 19d ago
Be the men’s issues conversation you want to see in the world. Be proactive in forming a productive discussion. Constructive criticism of our community is fine, but if you mainly criticize our approach, feminism, or other people's efforts to solve gender issues, your post/comment will be removed. Posts/comments solely focused on semantics rather than concepts are unproductive and will be removed. Shitposting and low-effort comments and submissions will be removed.
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u/ThereWasAnEmpireHere 19d ago
Mostly this piece reminded me of how previous trends in covering gender issues in my life have been pushed back on by people tired of hearing about it. I am a believer in the whole loneliness crisis concept but I am so tired of this way of framing it.
Idk man I'm single and doing a lot of work to try to be more social and it's been paying dividends. If someone's relationship is unbearable because of the work it is putting up with their partner they should just break up!
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u/FailingItUp 19d ago
Loneliness is the symptom, Isolation is the disease. Men across the board have less good news to share, less reasons to celebrate, and that's what historically they got people together for.
You want friends? Bond over something. Be a group with an activity to do. Picture some men building sandcastles on a beach - if only for a day, those are your bros. Rallying behind a banner of sorts.
There are few noble banners to rally under in today's world.
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u/TeaEarlGrayHotSauce 18d ago
For me, a real friend is someone I can just hang with without doing a particular activity or anything goal oriented. Literally just watching tv and cracking jokes and being completely comfortable around them. It’s hard to build and maintain that kind of relationship when everyone is busy with normal adult life things. I do have groups of people that I do activities with but I don’t feel as close to them as friends I’ve had in the past. Most of my social life is spent with my wife’s friends and their husbands, who are all lovely people, I can’t really complain
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u/Top_Sorbet_2794 18d ago
It's because they are overworked. We are all overworked. People are too tired and don't have the energy to meet up with people as much as we used to when 40 hours a week actually meant 40 hours a week. How you supposed to make friends when you get out of work at six or 7 PM? We're all tired, especially men since they give so much of their identity to what they are outside of the home.
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u/detentionbarn 10d ago edited 10d ago
I am late in stumbling across this article and commenting here, but it happened at an appropriate time for me.
I commented below about how over time I've dropped friends who I only knew because our kids were in school together years ago, whether or not our wives remain friends.
One of these guys (our kids were last classmates/friends 3.5 years ago) sent out an invite to his 60th birthday party and I intend to decline but my wife will probably go because she's friends with his wife.
I don't enjoy this guy's company. We have nothing in common. He's painfully unfunny, tells repeated long-winded stories with no context, is always the last person to leave a gathering (I used to pick my kid up at his house and refused to get out of the car and he would nevertheless follow me as i was backing out of his driveway to continue telling his boring stories), and only lets you talk so he can immediately crack an unfunny joke when you take a breath. Heck, his Evite was 1.5 pages full of unfunny jokes, and it's a "wear a silly hat!!!" party and he said if you don't he will have spares to "put on you."
That said...he doesn't have a bad bone in his body and unlike many of our peers, he (and his wife) open their home to others regularly. And THAT said....every man has free will to associate with others of their liking. So I will decline whether my wife attends or not.
ETA: I had to chuckle at the artwork used at the top of the article, because "forced fun" things like drunken conga lines are exactly what I don't enjoy socially.
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u/musicismydeadbeatdad 19d ago edited 19d ago
This was a decent review of a handful of people's situations but like many of these articles now I wish they would get more into the root causes.
They had a profile of one man that stopped doing pick up sports after he moved for his wife but they don't interrogate the fact that he clearly never fully processed the move or is still healing from disconnecting himself from his original community.
I do think there is some resonance in the fact that I imagine many of the wives don't truly understand why their husbands are actually hermits. I don't imagine the men are forthcoming with that info but just shuffling them around like toddlers at a playdate isn't solving the core issue, and I think by the time you've reached hermit status, you have a lot reasons for it. Maybe you aren't as healthy as you'd like, maybe you moved, maybe you changed jobs, maybe you're depressed, maybe you fell off the face of the earth for over a year+ during your honeymoon period...maybe it's a combo of all of that and more.
I get the sense most people don't talk about maintaining friendships because it feels like something children do, but in reality we need better practice at interrogating who we spend time with and why at all ages. I blame the cultural idea that once you hit 30+ you're only supposed to spend time with your family.