If Duren becomes available via sign and trade.

[u/devidomo]

I'm not nearly as down on Jalen Duren as most are right now. I think he would fit nicely as the starting center in a lineup featuring kyrie, coop, and morez. I think we can get it done offering up pj and gafford and maybe caleb martin to make the money work. Thoughts?

[u/Embarrassed-Ninja592]

I wouldn’t want to give him the contract he wants.

[u/devidomo → u/Embarrassed-Ninja592]

Eh i think its worth the risk especially under the back drop of paying lively. Like I feel more comfortable giving Duren 40 mil than lively 20+mil.

[u/Puzzled_Influence985 → u/devidomo]

Lively has anchored a near-Finals defense, and flashed legit 3PT skils. Duren has yet to do either.

[u/Burtssbees → u/Puzzled_Influence985]

lol I love lively and the first part is true but “flashing LEGIT 3pt skills” is a huuuuuge stretch hahaha. I’d like him to flash a legit ability to play more than 41 games in a season again. 100% 3p percentage in the finals tho

[u/Puzzled_Influence985 → u/Burtssbees]

Hitting a 3 in a Finals game is literally flashing legit 3PT skills. There's no bigger stage to do it.

[u/Burtssbees → u/Puzzled_Influence985]

I disagree because of the sample size. Last year in the preseason I remember him flashing his 3pt skills by hitting the side of the backboard if I recall right. I’m just saying we don’t have enough game data to claim he has legit 3pt % tho I hope he does

[u/X-Jim → u/Puzzled_Influence985]

Cmon. No mention that that was multiple seasons ago and he's been injured mostly every since?

[u/IndividualHeat → u/Puzzled_Influence985]

I have zero interest in Duren but I would not say Lively’s flashed more 3pt skills than Duren. Duren’s free throw percentage is better. 

[u/Puzzled_Influence985 → u/IndividualHeat]

Are you serious. Duren has never even made a three in open play. Lively has factually made more threes than Duren, on a bigger stage than Duren has ever even been on.

[u/Puzzled_Influence985 → u/Puzzled_Influence985]

I'm genuienly not even trying to diss Duren, but Lively at 85-90% health, even in this early stage of his development, is a franchise-level defensive anchor. Duren just had the worst playoffs of his career and is turning down generational wealth.

[u/IndividualHeat → u/Puzzled_Influence985]

The difference between making one three and making zero threes when they’ve both been in the league for four years is essentially nothing. There are valid reasons to prefer Lively over Duren but the three point thing is a silly one. 

[u/Puzzled_Influence985 → u/IndividualHeat]

Lively is just a better 3 PT prospect than Duren is. Duren has attempted a handful of threes, none of them being in the last two years, LMAO. He's trending in the wrong direction.

If you genuinely believe that Duren will be a better 3 PT player than Lively (and it doesn't involve Lively's health), then we just aren't going to agree.

[u/Puzzled_Influence985 → u/Puzzled_Influence985]

Free throw shooting is not a 3 PT skill by the way. It's a potential indicator of being able to hit a 3 in the future, with some people saying it doesn't predict shit. Lively hit an actual three in a Finals game, and regularly does 3 PT reps in practice, and is being coached by someone who seems to want that skill developed in his bigs.

[u/devidomo → u/Puzzled_Influence985]

Come on now. I cant even entertain the idea of either one of these dudes turning into three point threats.

[u/IndividualHeat → u/Puzzled_Influence985]

I don’t think either of them have shown any actual flashes of being good three point shooters and I certainly don’t think the trends are helping Lively’s case either given that he’s also not attempted any in the past two years. Being good at free throws doesn’t mean you’re going to be good at threes because it’s a more difficult shot but being bad at free throws is not a good sign. 

[u/Puzzled_Influence985 → u/IndividualHeat]

Also FT% is still highly-debated as to whether it actually predicts good 3PT shooting.

[u/abn01 → u/devidomo]

Duren ain't worth 40. Look at some of the top paid centers - AD (don't care if he doesn't see himself as a 5, he's a 5 in todays NBA -58.5m), Jokic (59m), KAT (57m), Embiid (57.8m). Those are the ones that are over 50m/yr.

The next set is Bam (49.5m) and Sabonis (45.5m) over 40m/yr. Sabonis is supremely overpaid, and Duren is not as good as Bam offensively or defensively.

Then the next set of centers around 30m/yr is where he probably slots. That's Rudy (36.5m), Sengun (35.6m), Kessler (30.1m), Jarrett Allen (28m), Myles (26.6m).

Duren got played off the floor in the playoffs, and was fairly non-existent. Just because you don't want to pay DLive more than 20 mil doesn't make paying Jalen Duren 40m a good decision. He's undersized, limited offensively, and hasn't proven himself to be a playoff riser.

[u/ActOfZod → u/abn01]

You're right in terms of the tier he slots into. The big difference between him and most of those guys is that he's only 22 and likely to keep improving through his contract.

Contracts for young players tend to reflect their projected future production. You're betting on potential with him and with all of his tools he is more capable of fixing his weaknesses such as defense (athleticism, length) and offense (great ft%) than some of the other names on that list that are making a little less than $40m.

Additionally his production fell off in the playoffs when teams were able to adjust their D for Detroits lack of spacing and creation. They could pack the paint which is where he does most of his damage. On a team with more shooting I think he could've maintained most of his regular season form.

Not saying I'd want to pay him the money, but i can see the argument.

[u/abn01 → u/ActOfZod]

That's a fair point, but in the second apron world, it feels like teams are more considerate of who they pay.

Look at it this way - Rudy is 9x all defensive team, 4x all nba, 4x DPOY and most people would say he's overpaid at 36.5/yr.

I just don't think you can pay a 5 that much money unless he is bringing something offensively outside of rebounding, screen setting, and scoring around the basket. You have to be able to guard on the perimeter (like Bam) or be able to be guarded on the perimeter (KAT, Jokic, Embiid).

Sengun is a perfect example at 35m. He's an offensive hub, but he can't shoot from deep and that hurts the Rockets ability to get deep in the playoffs. Detroit has committed a bunch of money to Ausar and idk that his shot will ever improve. You can't have two people that don't need to be guarded on the perimeter and only want to score at the basket.

To your point - if he went somewhere with a bunch of shooting, but no 5 maybe he's worth 40m, but unless you know he's playing 30mins or more a game, and he's in your closing lineup, no one would be able to really stomach that contract.

Now, he could go play somewhere with no playoff aspirations and go collect a check. And if thats what he wants to do at 22, I ain't mad at it. But he's not going to be the finishing piece for some team at that price without significantly expanding his offensive game imo.

[u/devidomo → u/ActOfZod]

Damn bro you broke down my thoughts better than I could. Especially the points about team composition. Thats such an under talked about point in all this.

[u/devidomo → u/abn01]

The thing about all of your 30m/yr centers is we already know who they are and will be. Outside of Kessler i think all of those players are well established without much thought to upside. Also I happen to think sengun is probably under paid a bit. Basically being paid somewhere between sabonis and rudy seems to fit nicely for a 22 year old like duren.

[u/Embarrassed-Ninja592 → u/devidomo]

We got project 28 to consider here 

[u/naked_avenger → u/devidomo]

I think he wants well over the 40 tho, right? Isn’t 40 a year what the pistons are offering now?

[u/devidomo → u/naked_avenger]

You're right but it's starting to look like that relationship might be over so it might not be about the money.

[u/Embarrassed-Ninja592 → u/devidomo]

Also. We just drafted a guy with a nearly identical physical and defensive profile, but appears to be able to shoot and do other stuff on offense that will enable him to not get benched in the playoffs.

[u/Puzzled_Influence985]

Makes no sense salary wise or fit wise. I think Masai and Dusty clearly want a big who can / or eventually will be a reliable stretch big. See the Morez pick. A quick Google search tells me that Duren hasn't even taken a three the last two seasons.

Ideally Morez exceeds what Duren currently is if he is developed right.

[u/FreeDaemon]

Not for the salary that he wants and for the attitude.

[u/devidomo → u/FreeDaemon]

I think we cant really go by the attitude thing when we really havent heard him speak about much. Kyrie turnee out well and people had way more to say about him.

[u/Embarrassed-Ninja592 → u/devidomo]

Kyrie is basketball Buda though.

[u/Hydronautz]

No I do not want Ayton 2.0

[u/lxdarksnip3r]

I would rather have Anthony Davis. Injury issues and all.

[u/TheWizard]

Not this again.

[u/Powerful-Context416]

PJ and Gaff would work number wise..... i think

[u/qotsabama]

I actually am not down on Duren but he isn’t a need for us. We have plenty of bigs. We need guards.

[u/Hot_Climate8304]

No

[u/Rafe03]

I know it’s a big if, but if Lively gets and stays healthy I don’t want to be paying Duren $42M+ per year. I feel like a healthy Lively is more conducive to winning. Especially when I feel like it’s probable Duren peaked last year and playoff Duren is what we’ll get once he gets paid. Dude is also a terrible rapper.

[u/devidomo → u/Rafe03]

Bro Lively's health is the only reason i think we should entertain this. I agree that if lively is healthy we dont need duren, but i think his contract would be tradeable. I just dont see us being able to pivot if it gets established that lively is only a 40 to 50 game player

[u/EvanEschmeyer]

If it’s just PJ and Gaff, then sure but I imagine Detroit would want more and it sounds like Duren wants more than that number too so pass

[u/dmthirdeye]

He's simply not worth the amount he wants and any team that gives it to him will end up regretting the contract

No thanks

[u/armandocalvinisius]

I will never give centers 35m+ if he's not game changer on offense on top doing great on their must job : defend, rebound, rim protection

The reasons teams fall these days because of paying center way above their market rate because they forced to do that like gobert with minny because they trade big assets for him. Treat centers like running back, run it by commitee

[u/L3tsG3t1T]

How about No. There's a lot not to like about this whole fiasco.

[u/alecweezy]

Coop will have to change his whole play style to perimeter based to fit with Duren

[u/Scared-Ebb3284]

With Lively's health concerns I would definitely take a chance on Duren. PJ and Gafford should get it done.

[u/AlBundysPants → u/Scared-Ebb3284]

I could be talked into this if Detroit was also sending back a high pick. That would be the trade off for me if we are going to pay him 40.