r/Hotd • u/Illustrious-Fee5670 • 3d ago
Discussion Viserys dies during S01e03. How does young Queen Rhaenyra handle the Stepstones?
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u/SRGTBronson 3d ago
She marrys daemon and they skip the middle man and just burn down the three cities directly.
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u/TheBootyTickler 3d ago edited 2d ago
Daemon continues predation in cahoots with Corlys and marries Rhaenyra. Corlys promises loyalty if the Stepstones are taken, and he and Daemon conquer it immediately with the Realm's support with dragons.
Daemon is untenable and arrogant, but a better image for the realm than Rhaenyra is, and will be uplifted as Regent king until Rhaenyra is considered old and smart enough to take the throne for herself; which will never happen. Either by sidelining or via political assassination orchestrated from Daemon himself after she bears children.
The greens bitch and moan the entire time, but Hightower has no way to play mind games with Daemon. Hightower is removed as Hand, Corlys is brought in. Rhaenyra and Daemon's children are married off to Corlys' sons and daughters to strengthen the ties. Targs keep the throne for at least another generation until another messy, incestuous problem arises.
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u/Trypophilia2019 3d ago edited 3d ago
Zero part of me believes Daemon would assassinate Rhaenyra. Matt Smith has said Daemon, despite all his flaws, is incredibly loyal to Rhaenyra and Viserys.
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u/____mynameis____ 3d ago
Worst case scenerio is him either manipulating Rhaenyra into giving the throne or being an overbearing husband who is gonna undermine her and play being THE KING.
He's not gonna straight up murder her. His one redeeming quality is he's loyal to his blood even of it's in some twisted way. He may hurt and sideline Rhaenyra but he will NOT murder her
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u/TheBootyTickler 3d ago
Yes, well, the intoxication of the Iron Throne is well documented. Daemon is already extremely loose in morality, and struggles with loyalty to Rhaenyra for a considerable amount of time before his reformation as a loyal husband.
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u/Trypophilia2019 3d ago
He struggles with being lower than her on the totem pole, but I don’t think he struggles with being loyal to her. He might want more power, but he’d never betray her and toss her aside to get it.
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u/TheBootyTickler 3d ago
Fair way to look at things, and perfectly understandable. My interpretation of him is a little more cutt-throat and I liken the majority of his allegiance being grounded in Viserys more than anything. Just sharing my thoughts on an alternate plot point where Daemon is afforded a clear pathway to the Throne.
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u/Trypophilia2019 3d ago
Oh, I agree he’d take the throne if he could. I just don’t think he’d betray Rhaenyra to do it.
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u/sWZwRaAs 3d ago
You make some good points but I think Daemon is more likely to have a more unstable reign then what you have described.
Daemon is controversial in the sense that nobody is neutral on him. People either love him or hate him. He is not always the most forward thinking person as well. He was pissy over Rhaenyra being named heir because he wanted Visery's attention. He didn't (until Harrenhal) actually think about how he would hate ruling.
Daemon is the better choice over Rhaenyra on paper but overtime he would hate ruling and frankly be bad at it. He hates listening to the concerns of the smallfolk and nobles alike. He sees himself above it all and I don't see him being good at maintaining stability in the realm because he would get bored and blow something up with Caraxes.
I envision him getting assassinated (or possibly dying in some skirmish rebellion) then Rhaenyra rules as regent for their probably too young son. Her being regent would be short however. I see Corlys (or another lord) quickly declaring her unfit and becoming regent/advisor to her son. Depending on the marriage arrangements made it could quickly escalate to the dance anyway as this could create enough of a power vacuum for houses to think they can get their blood on the throne.
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u/savingrain 3d ago
I actually think this would have been very interesting plot too- especially if Rhaenyra eventually breaks free of Dameon’s manipulation and schemes against him (unsuccessfully) dance of dragons in another form
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u/cretsben 2d ago
I mean she is 17 and 16 is typical majority in Westeros so she doesn't need a regent. That said for some years she would likely be dominated politically by her king consort and hand (I assume Corlys) on the other hand sending one or both of them off to deal with the Stepstones (and bringing in Rhaenys for backup if needed) probably gets her enough time to build up her own standing.
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u/Trypophilia2019 3d ago
Wouldn’t it have been much easier to usurp her in episode 3, considering she even thought she’d have been replaced at that time?
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u/CadeCoquin 3d ago
Sends an air wing of Velaryon and Targaryen dragons to root out the pirates along with a sizeable fleet and army. This is successful, but spooks the Free Cities. An alliance of the Triarchy, Volantis and Braavos starts preparations to repel invasion, Rhaenyra under the influence of Daemon takes this as provocation, and everywhere from the Sunset Sea to the Rhoyne is engulfed in war. This leads to the destruction of House Targaryen, the breaking up of Westeros, and an earlier assault by the Others from North of the Wall.
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u/No_Turn5018 3d ago
Why don't they just burn down them down if they refuse to bend the knee? Straight out of the Targaryen SOP page 1, how to take over if the other side doesn't have dragons.
Maybe if they're smart they can pull off something similar to Dorne and running high to the point that they give up and go home. But not much of a war.
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u/CadeCoquin 3d ago edited 3d ago
The problem is that dragons are not simply a Win button. You can do tremendous damage with them, but they can't do the heavy lifting of occupation that requires an army, they can't do counterinsurgency (if anything they stoke insurgency) and they can't be everywhere at once. Targaryen Westeros is not Old Valyria. They can't field an overwhelming force of dragons, and they don't have a unified war machine to back up the dragons, and there would just be too much area to cover.
The Dornish comparison is apt. The Free Cities wouldn't need to win, they just need to not lose until the Westerosi collapse.
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u/No_Turn5018 3d ago
The 7 Kingdoms don't need to send troops. They barely need to send ships. And that's it, there's no collapse.
The cities they do need to survive.
Step 0) Pick a/several relative with a dragon.
Step 1) Say/message surrender or die.
Step 2) If they don't fall in line fast burn a city/army/fleet to the ground.
Step 3) Repeat cycle.
Now long term it might be a cluster fuck. Hard to defend, very different place so for sure hard to govern. But unless you think they are all brain damaged like Hodor there's zero chance of a collapse. Hell it might even make things more stable in the actual seven kingdoms. Harder to have factions if you've all got a real mutual enemy and some of you die off.
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u/CadeCoquin 3d ago
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u/No_Turn5018 2d ago
Lol That's a hot take considering it's the basis for the setting.
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u/LarsMatijn 2d ago
The Free Cities murdered all the dragonlords who were hanging there after the Doom. They know how this game is played.
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u/No_Turn5018 2d ago
Right good plan we'll just sneak into their bedrooms in Kings Landing... Oh wait it's almost like it's entirely different because they don't live in these cities they're just trying to conquer them. Yeah. It's almost like by the time they took over Westeros they had heard about that and realized they needed some place to live that was relatively safe and then they needed vassals who commanded local loyalty to deal with the day today.
But you know you're right if they move in and act exactly like the people who were probably not being super careful because they were in a brand new situation and didn't know how to handle it they could do that. It's probably just not super applicable.
Realistically there's not going to be a whole lot of chances for that kind of stuff because it's going to be I'm chilling everything's fine, my whole city is on fire.
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u/Worth_Top412 1h ago
In regards to the unconcern over assassination, the Targaryen’s need to survive every attempt, the magisters or whoever only need to succeed once or twice to start scaring people, not to mention the known dragonlord haters in the house of black and white might decide to intervene if the Targaryens look like they might be trying to dominate the stepstones and southern disputed lands since that gives them a stranglehold on trade that Braavos depends on. There is also the question of how exactly you maintain control over the stepstones long term, do you have to pay lords to sit troops on barren rocks and expend money trying to supply them? Do you set up dragon riders on bloodstone or some other island, now they are out of the red keep and its defenses, assassins just had their job made easier. I would argue the point is that the stepstones don’t justify the expense keeping them, it’s why even at the best of times kings or magisters will just pay pirate tolls or sponsor some petty king or other. Trade tolls just aren’t worth pissing off that many people and more than a few major houses would suffer if free city trade declines which creates unneeded dissent.
Sorry for the long comment, just was thinking of some counter points as to why the Targs or other groups never permanently took the stepstones
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u/tazallerr 1d ago
what a genuinely insane prediction.
westeros doesn't have the ships to cross the narrow sea in force. essos can't cross against air superiority.
the war stalemates immediately until the free cities beg for peace, since they are the only ones getting fucked over by the destruction of trade.
or they refuse, the stalemate lasts indefinitely, and over a decade or two westerosi fleets build up enough that they can conquer and garrison the free cities one by one.
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u/IWASCHOSENBYGOD 3d ago
She's going to bundle all her girlboss energy into a powerful energy blast that fully wipes out the Triachy's fleet
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u/ArtisticAd7795 3d ago edited 3d ago
lol the stepstones get abandoned completely, Coryls and Daemon return to the kings landing
Daemon is still prime nonce at this point a callous predator i believe the grooming has just started but that was the long game
In this scenario I see Corlys and Daemon forcing the marriage between Daemon and Rhaenerya
Rhaenyra is sidelined
Daemon is defacto king
Rhaenyra potentially ends up like Margaret Beaufort
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u/Richmond1013 3d ago
she would immediately go and support her uncle if she is of age, but if she is not Otto or Alicent would be regent, so Daemon would more or less be on his own and possibly lose as Viserys was the one who okayed the support
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u/LordsofMedrengard 3d ago
How does young Queen Rhaenyra handle the Stepstones?
If we take into account how she handles every other responsibility she has over the course of the show, poorly. Good odds that any decision made gets abandoned prematurely if nothing else, Rhaenyra is NOT built to oversee grinding sieges or fight a war of attrition. She also doesn't have a hugely powerful dragon herself, so her personal contribution is likely to be limited compared to Daemon or the Velaryons - not a good thing in a society so mired in warmongering and martial feats.
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u/SebSpellbinder 2d ago
Probably by getting pregnant out of wedlock, insulting her supporters and starting a blood feud with half the free cities and old town or something.
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u/Canadian__Ninja 3d ago
Rhaenyra heard one meeting about it and said, "why aren't we doing more violence?" She would be very happy supporting Daemon and Corlys
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u/gabriel_3131 2d ago
Mandar ayuda como era lo lógico desde el principio. Enserio que viserys no se tomara este asunto enserio desde el inicio fue bastante negligente al extremo
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u/HanzRoberto 3d ago
Daemon and corlys would usurper lol
Daemon and Laena would be betrothed the same day they know about his death
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u/Bellaexee 3d ago
No civil war but people don’t respect a woman so you probably get Martell, Hightower or some other house to start trying to make their way to the top.
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u/Miserable-Garage804 3d ago
As opposed to when a man was ruling and house Hightower doesn’t try to make their way to the top?
She would marry daemon anyway, so it’ll all be ok
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u/leashall 2d ago
House Martell are the only house that let women inherit over men and aren’t even part of the Seven Kingdoms yet
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u/Aegon_Targaryen_III 3d ago
Rhaenyra is probably still to young to be Queen in her own right, so whoever her regent is is responsible for everything. Probably Otto Hightower. Which means nothing gets done in the stepstones.
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u/cretsben 2d ago
She is 17 then so she is of age to rule in her own name. I don't think Otto sticks around long.
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u/Responsible-Bee-1919 2d ago
GRRM did a good job making sure the seeds of war were sewn so at almost every turn there is a fight over the succession.
What will Rhaenyra do? I think she’d probably be most inclined to call upon her uncle Daemon.
Otto probably will try to keep both Rhaenyra and baby Aegon under his thumb by encouraging Rhaenyra to marry her brother baby Aegon (tempting her with the prospect of sole rule during his minority and maybe in the back of her mind she’d be thinking to go with it like Cleopatra married her brother then murdered him before he attained majority). The trap for this option is that if she goes for it Otto will insist on a Regency for the young king and queen so Rhaenyra is blocked from any real power and blocked from marrying Daemon.
Daemon will try to hitch his claim to Rhaenyra by marrying her, then making sure baby aegon is imprisoned or killed off, and driving the Hightower faction from court.
Corlys would also be trying to secure a path back to throne by offering alliances secured by marriages such as Laenor to Rhaenyra and/or Laena to Daemon or baby Aegon.
The other ambitious young lords like the Lannister Twins may not be fully committed yet by marriages and probably could be turned to any side.
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u/Europeanguy1995 3d ago
She sends full support to Daemon.
Daemon is allied with Corlys.
Daemon marries Rhanerya and rules. She pops out 3 kids, he has her assassinated. Takes full control of the throne. Marries his kids to Corlys kids or grandkids and maybe one to the Lannisters or Dorne.
Daemon takes Corlys daughter as his new regent queen. The Valaryons and Targaryens keep a strong control of the throne for a few generations. Eventually a dance happens though either way as too many royals and dragons will eventually make for greed and ambition to split their loyalty to eachother. Just maybe it takes another 60 or 70 years.
Rhanrya though would have been Daemons puppet for a few years, send him the help he needs, marries him, gives him kids then then "dies" so she cant be a threat
Also the hightowers have to spent another few decades plotting a plan to climb the ladder again.
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u/AnotherDogOwner 3d ago edited 3d ago
The story definitely follows parallel to the War of the Roses. So to both secure her power and realm, she does ended up marrying Daemon (despite her father’s previous reservations) to both unite their claims and have a strong protecting force.
Daemon is still going to have absolute loyalty of the Gold Cloaks. And I would also think there’d still be space for characters such as Laenor to develop into their own right, instead of as an accessory/weakness of Rhaenyra.
And if Corlys still has Laenor, there wouldn’t be much space for Alyn of Hull storyline. He seeming stays within a silent disputed position where he remains unacknowledged.
But mostly bringing up these characters in a sense of the minor changed motivations of existing characters, how does this affect Corlys’s overall involvement in the Stepstones if he has no direct alliance with the crown? Maybe since Daemon wouldn’t be toying around with pseudo kingship of the Stepstones, does a possibility exist where Daemon isn’t the grandstanding force (instead becoming the stabilizer to legitmize Rhaenyra’s home rule, judging and listening to people as Rhaenyra’s adult proxy?) Does that drive to control the inner politics allow for a power vacuum to form, where a new faction led Corlys forges a more defined powerbase between Driftmark and the Stepstones?
He has the strongest navy, but if his position in court isn’t as tethered as it was in the show, I can see a new version of the Greens forming through the Velaryon-Rhaenys’s senior claim.
It also kinda changes the dynamics of who controls what dragons. And who has the power to hold Dragonstone? It would be the Velaryons [Vhagar is still in the Velaryon house btw]. Is there space for Laena and Daemon to wed? If they do not wed, then she doesn’t die of childbirth (or atleast the complications we know do not form the same).
Kinda more dynamic to think about when it comes to “motivations to go to war.” And Corlys’s complete rule of the sea would be a scary dynamic that could then force even more support to an opposing faction.
TLDR;
I think Daemon returns/stays in court to unite claims and strengthen home rule. I see Corlys’s way to power through his wife and daughter, both dragon riders, but his eventual domination of the Narrows Sea. With the greatest nuke [Vhagar], and the strongest navy, he would have two avenues to form legitimate alliances through his son and daughter. And by pursuing this, he does end up again with a pathway to placing a Velaryon on the Iron throne.
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There’s also no foreseeable splintering within the Velaryon House, as his brother [Vaemond] won’t be executed for claiming Rhaenyra’s children to be Bastards. I really think this kinda just adds to a potentially stronger oppostion, instead of the clusterfk we see.
There’s also another side plot to reintroduce the Faith Militant; through the uniting of claims, because the early Targaryen rule involved conflicts with Aegon’s and Maegor’s marriage practices conflicting with the Seven, does this dynamic also reinforce a notion that Daemon cannot be afforded to command in the war against the Triarchy? Where he fights a war of attrition against the Faith Militant, while Corlys gathers power when the crown is busy?
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u/lead_comet 3d ago
She marries Daemon which completely secures her the throne. Daemon for all his faults he is utterly loyal to her an her dead dad. No assassinations at all. If anything there would be peace for a good while. She has good people backing her like Daemon, the Strongs, Valerian etc etc. The Hightowers would actually probably back her too as at this point they were not hostile to her. Assuming she gives birth to alot of kids specifically males an females being 3 or 4 women an 2 men. Her line would be completely secure as well as place the Targs in in alot of political marriages. Prime targets would Baratheon, Valerian, High Towers, Lanisters, Starks an the Dornish. By doing this u keep the kingdom together at least for a 100 to 150 years. U would to keep the dragons on a short leash tho. Ur direct kids can have them but not the grandkids. Alicent in particular would be a Prime target for one of ur boys. Keeps Hightower on a short leash. The other boy can marry the Valerians daughter. If u lets say had another boy he marries one of the Baratheon daughters. I think if played this way u get peace for a good while. While keeping the Dragons alive
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u/PackageOk4947 3d ago
Sits on the throne, has a period, then says she's bleeding for the realm, oh yeah, fucks her uncle...
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u/Puzzleheaded_Eye7311 3d ago
She sends help immediately to Daemon without question or even goes herself