r/HonestHotTakes • • 1h ago

serious hot take Generalizing men based on statistics about violent crime is using the exact same logic racists use to defend generalizing marginalized men

I want to preface this by saying I don’t believe either one of these generalizations are necessarily valid but they are utilizing the same “a few bad apples ruin the bunch“ framework. I know that black men face overpolicing, disproportionate exonerations, disproportionate sentencing etc but those apply to all men since men are the majority of criminals.

123 Upvotes

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u/AdDry7344 1h ago

Generalizing is usually a bad idea in almost any context.

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u/OldSarge02 1h ago

It’s a bad idea to apply generalizations to specific individuals, but obviously it is necessary in many useful fields to study and understand broad trends.

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u/VKTGC 1h ago

The problem then is, is it fair to treat people based on different trends for their group? I’d say the answer is no but there are strong arguments as to why it could hypothetically be justified. That’s the dilemma.

1

u/Own_Mission8048 44m ago

"All generalizations are false, including this one."

-Donald Rumsfeld

0

u/Circumstancer 40m ago

Generalisations are generally bad, gotcha

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u/AdDry7344 39m ago

Glad to help.

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u/Own_Hat584 22m ago

Your own statement is literally a generalization, genius. Generalizing is good and efficient!

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u/AdDry7344 19m ago

I didn’t, though. Using “usually” and “almost” leaves a reasonable amount of leeway… So it’s objectively not a generalization. Einstein.

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u/MayhemPenguin5656 59m ago

When does it become a pattern though?

And when it is a pattern why can it not be addressed?

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u/ChiefMuppetWrangler 20m ago

The majority of violent crimes are perpetrated by a small number of persistent violent offenders, typically males, characterized by early onset of violent criminality, substance abuse, personality disorders, and nonviolent criminality.

Approximately 1% of offenders in the world commit 63% of the violent crime (and are convicted of it)

Source

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u/Solondthewookiee 1h ago

The race/ethnicity that is responsible for the most crime proportionally varies widely depending on city, country, region, culture, economic class, etc.

The gender that is responsible for the most crime proportionally never changes.

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u/Passerbye1991 1h ago

So... intersectionality matters until it undermines the point youre trying to make?

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u/Solondthewookiee 1h ago

Nope, nobody said that.

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u/MrBeerbelly 1h ago

This point was never necessary to dismiss Black crime rhetoric as racist

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u/Street_Estate2342 19m ago

If you'd like to dispute this I'll have to actually find the stats, but I suspect you'll agree:

the economic class that commits the most violent crime, proportionally, similarly doesn't change. Can we also act accordingly there?

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u/MoreLikeGaewyn 1h ago

This should be in textbooks as an example of moving goal posts.

How about blaming a group for the poor actions of some is bad?

0

u/Solondthewookiee 53m ago

I didn't move any goalposts. I simply demonstrated why OPs argument is wrong.

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u/Jimmywise-1 15m ago

You didn’t demonstrate anything, I said generalizing based on the actions of few is wrong, it’s what we condemn racists for. U brought up a completely unrelated point about how no one single race/ethnicity is responsible for a majority of violent crime across the globe, a point nobody argued or implied. 

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u/tnobuhiko 4m ago

You just moved goalposts. By your logic, since majority of prostitutes are women everywhere, it is ok to act like every women is a prostitute. Do you think it would be ok to assume every women is a prostitute?

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u/Circumstancer 36m ago

Hardly the point though is it. The point is even if ethnicity of crime was constant, it still wouldn't be seen as acceptable to make these general comments the same way it seems to be with men.

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u/demonotreme 59m ago

Japanese probably are "responsible for most crime" in Japan, but I'm not sure this is the damning indictment you seem to think.

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u/Pitiful_Meet6407 2m ago

No it’s pretty consistent. Of course the Midwest isn’t going to have African American men as the primary offenders, they don’t exist there.

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u/Bambivalently 0m ago

Right, it was the white farmers in Zimbabwe that were the problem. That's why they kicked them out, I mean murdered them for their farms. Then failed at running them, sold them for parts and plunged the country into a famine.

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u/1spywithmylittle1 1h ago

It changes based on the victims. For example, women are responsible for just as many killings when it comes to children.

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u/ConsultJimMoriarty 1h ago

Women are higher within the first year of life, after that, men are higher.

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u/VKTGC 1h ago

Yep. Overall men kill their offspring more and their entire family.

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u/1spywithmylittle1 1h ago

Just barely. It's pretty much equal.

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u/Solondthewookiee 1h ago

Nope.

Men are more likely to murder children in every age group.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11318188/

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u/ChiefMuppetWrangler 23m ago

Ironically the study you posted is for firearm deaths.

Worldwide systematic reviews show that when parents commit child homicides, mothers account for roughly 54.7% to 58.4% of parental perpetrators (depending on the study and victim age), meaning maternal and paternal rates are relatively close or slightly female-skewed in infant cases.

Mothers commit a significant share of infant homicides, with global data indicating mothers are responsible for about 71.7% of parental killings in the first year of life.

Source

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u/[deleted] 1h ago

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u/HonestHotTakes-ModTeam 33m ago

Hot Takes about NSFW topics are allowed. However, we are drawing a hard line on the following topics:

Gore or graphic descriptions of injury/death, sexual violence, intentionally repulsive content, politics, other topics at moderator discretion.

Keep it spicy, not sickening.

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u/Terrible_Key3050 1h ago

Plus, A LOT of handwaving happens with crimes committed by women. For example, sex crimes committed by women are very frequently ignored and treated as if the man must've wanted it because how else could he be so weak.

For example, frequently there are cases of female teachers grooming male students and rather than it being taken completely seriously you get idiot chuds saying shit like "lucky" or "wish that was me". Which is mostly guys making shit worse for other guys.

That said, women aren't entirely innocent either, they will frequently say how he must not be man enough or some other bs to have let that happen or how it "gives them the ick" that kinda shit.

Frequently rape won't even be the word used in news coverage. They will soften it by calling it "sex" as if it was consensual.

So with all that said, you have to assume there is A LOT of underreporting.

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u/VKTGC 1h ago

Underreporting goes both ways. I highly doubt it skews the proportionality of the numbers to a degree where the entire basis of most conversations change.

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u/Terrible_Key3050 1h ago

Sure but I think it would emphasize that there are a lot more women getting away with smaller and safer crimes. We all know that statistically men take more risks. This goes with crimes too, usually women are committing smaller crimes that are easier to get away with or are more thought out with some sort of way to guarantee their safety.

So I do think underreporting would have a bit more of an impact than you'd think.

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u/[deleted] 1h ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/VKTGC 1h ago

Lmao right

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u/Terrible_Key3050 1h ago

I'm not saying shit like that you dingus. I am saying shit like a teacher abusing her position of power and age over a student to groom them being safer than kidnapping someone and leaving a ton of traces.

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u/UberFarter 1h ago

Great now what’s the ratio of female teachers who do that compared to the amount of male teachers?

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u/Terrible_Key3050 1h ago

Well considering the entire discussion rn is about underreporting, you can't use the known statistics to further your point here.

We don't know. Neither of us do. But odds are that its a lot more skewed towards women than the statistics would have you believe is all I am saying.

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u/UberFarter 46m ago edited 42m ago

Sure, that’s why men have done nothing to make male shelters for male victims of female violence or commonly complain that women are pressuring them to have unwanted sex or drugging them as women commonly complain about. Sure.

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u/favorable_vampire 1h ago

Completely made up to make yourself feel better.

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u/OkSky3150 52m ago

That is based on the opressive nature of hegemonic masculinity

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u/Substantial_Judge931 1h ago

I know so many guys who were abused by women and it never got reported. Myself included.

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u/OkSky3150 51m ago

Because of the taboo.

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u/Terrible_Key3050 58m ago

Crazy how even this comment gets downvoted lol. Ironic though because them dismissing your comment right now is exactly what proves our point.

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u/Anti_Patriarchy 1h ago

And that is only so because women are the caretakers, while men abandon their children.

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u/PupienusExpress 30m ago

By that logic, men get credit for science, math, and democracy too, right? Or is it just the bad stuff?

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u/Connect-Peach2337 12m ago

Depends, did everyone have equal access to education and political influence, or…?

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u/Pitiful_Meet6407 1m ago

Access or not they were responsible so

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u/StatBoosterX 14m ago

Only if its real, indisputable data. Men in what you listed are not indisputable data

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u/HumiliationSlut34 1h ago

Dont yall get tired of baiting? You dont want to give the mods a break?

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u/N0t_Baiting 1h ago

Yeah, if you’re gonna ragebait you might wanna change that username and pfp bud

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u/Gullible-Chapter-800 1h ago

Generalizing in what way? The statement “most criminal activity is perpetrated by men” is just verifiably true. Are you saying people are using this to claim most men are criminals?

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u/jli1228 59m ago

I believe, to be more precise, the controversial argument is that the statistic is justification for the suspicion of men as a whole. I believe they have good intentions, but as "one of the good ones," I'm awfully tired of having to prove myself as one of the good ones. As a POC, I've always found it weird how people can be against racial profiling but still say, "But it's almost always a man."

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u/OkSky3150 48m ago

It is generally a man. And once we admit this we can change?

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u/WorldlyDiscipline419 15m ago

It’s generally a man of colour. Can we change now?

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u/sasheenka 4m ago

There are very few men of colour in my country.

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u/ChiefMuppetWrangler 30m ago

What are you going to change when the majority of men, say 95%, aren’t committing violent crimes?

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u/DancingWithAWhiteHat 59m ago

Um, no. I get why you feel this way, and frankly don't think you need to accept people lumping you in with rapists because of gender.

But the accusations black people deal with vs the accusations people are making against men --- they're coming from two different sources. 

In the US, the criminal justice system is voluntary on the part of the enforcers. Prosecutors can choose not to pursue charges, cops can opt against arresting people, judges can give lenient sentences. When black people are talking about our justice system being racist, we're saying,

~if this happened to a white guy, a cop wouldn't have bothered arresting him.  ~if this happened to a white guy, a prosecutor would've picked lighter charges.  ~if this happened to a white guy, the judge would've suggested community service over two years in jail. 

And this has been pretty well substantiated by research. Just look at sentencing disparities for the same crimes. 

But when we're talking about sex crimes, gendered violence, most of these incidents don't reach courts. For the latter, a large proportion of cops are guilty of them. Women aren't hearing about this from systems. They're learning about this from their sisters being raped, nearly killed by their partners. 

Its just, you're comparing the behavior of a system vs the behavior of an affected populace. Its apples to oranges.

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u/LughCrow 46m ago

Can't this also be used to apply here? Women are far less likely to be charged with things like assault and are less likely to even be reported.

Until recently women were legally incapable of committing or being charged with rape(in some places they still are)

They are less likely to be charged as accessories to crimes.

More likely to be given favorable deals to get charged dropped or lowered.

Etc

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u/vanillacreamwafer 1h ago

Equating women's caution regarding men with racial prejudice is a false equivalence that ignores the fundamental difference between survival strategy and systemic oppression. When women generalize about men in the context of safety, it is a decentralized, defensive reaction to a globally consistent reality that men commit roughly 90+% of violent crime which includes rape, assault, robbery, domestic violence, murder, across every culture and era. The intent is personal risk-mitigation, not a desire to strip men of their civil liberties or economic power. On the other hand, racist generalizations are designed to subjugate, reinforcing historic power imbalances to justify structural harms like mass incarceration and exclusion. One is a protective boundary used by a vulnerable group to stay safe and bring attention to problems almost entirely caused by men, while the other is an offensive tool used to maintain a racial hierarchy. Treating them as logically identical completely ignores the context of power and why these generalizations exist. Also, actually good men know that when women say "all men", they aren't talking about them and don't feel the need to get defensive.

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u/birthdaycheesecake9 51m ago

Yeah the power dynamics between different groups in society is a really important nuance to consider when we talk about whether it’s adaptive or maladaptive to be reacting to our mental heuristics for different groups of people

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u/extraterrestrial1111 37m ago

If they don’t mean “all men”, why do they say “all men”?

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u/TheBrokkoliLord 8m ago

Because it's sadly too many men and a lot of passive men that can make it feel like it's the overwhelming majority of men.

A bit of an extreme example: Cornell Case. Only 7 men actually raped the woman. But there were 5ü other men in the group chat and not a single one thought to call the police. The lack of help in such cases can make it feel like it's all men, since they are protecting an enviroment in which the abuse can happen.

Again, that does not make it ok. I think most of then know it's not all men, but there is a lot, and i mean A LOT, of frustration. (Almost) every women has at least 1 assault or harassment story

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u/Barky_and_Squid 42m ago

Are men allowed to be offended by the fact that, considering the language used, it reads as if they are implicating all men?

Sorta like how people get offended when people say, “Palestinians are terrorists,” and people on Reddit must remind them that Hamas is the problem and not all Palestinians?

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u/OstrichesAndGin 44m ago

Jesus the hoops you have to jump through, which men? Your same stats will tell you when and where to be careful 🫩

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u/Dentlas 43m ago

So, essentially, you're saying that generalization and hate is alright as long as your defined goalpost allows it so, generalizations you would not permit in equal about women I assume, for the troubles that some experience on a more, 'general' and statistical prevalent basis.

Your argument of power and systemic oppression doesn't take into account the growing number of, and already several states and countries where this 'power' is statistically not apparent anymore, in fact, in some instances it may even have fundamentally shifted to the reverse. Scandinavia is a prime example of this. In these countries, is it then alright for men to publicly hate women because the good ones will know they are not talking about them?

If you state "Well it's been so on a historical basis", alright, and on a historical basis we used to keep slaves, that doesn't make it right to do now. We can admit the faults of the past, see the harms and correct ourselves now. You simply choosing which harms is okay and not on the basis of "I want to hate thee" is nothing but pure hypocrisy.

Or in Europe where MENAPT individuals consistently rank amongst the by far highest crime rates throughout the continent, since it is so consistent, and in some countries an actual question if safety akin to what you're explaining the reason women do it, would it then be qualified under your own definition as alright to socially outcast, shame and utilize terms and movements to harass, chase and villainize individuals that may, be in this group?

The hate coming from these women carry extreme harm on a societal level, especially to kids influenced by this. Kids do not know they do not qualify under the ".... all men". Do you hate kids? Want to harm them? If not why are you then saying you would?

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u/Bambivalently 3m ago

I don't think you know how statistics work. It's a minority of men.

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u/Substantial_Judge931 1h ago

As a black man, I’ve made this point so many times. So many of the arguments used against men have been used against me as a black guy by racists.

It’s sickening.

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u/euphorb_enjoyer 52m ago

Except in this analogy men would be equivalent to white people, not black people.

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u/Substantial_Judge931 37m ago

My point stands that in both cases people are generalizing based on something that a person can’t change about themselves. It’s not ok

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u/OkSky3150 25m ago

No, we can change. Being capable of violence and doing it are different.

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u/Enigma_RR 1m ago

No, but you'll never reach the day there's no discrimination, you'll be treated the same regardless if you do good or bad.

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u/OkSky3150 0m ago

How? Against men?

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u/euphorb_enjoyer 33m ago

Reddit is so obsessed with combatting anti white male oppression. You’re such a strong solider 🫡

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u/Street_Estate2342 11m ago

You're responding to someone who specified they're a black man but you're talking about specifically "white male oppression", when he has talked about experiencing it as a black man.

You are literally whitewashing someone right now. Hahahaha

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u/euphorb_enjoyer 6m ago

I care about the words people say not what race they are

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u/Street_Estate2342 4m ago

How is what they are saying specifically combatting anti white male oppression if they are experiencing it as a black man? Why are you throwing the "white" in there?

You seem to care about the race since you threw it in unnecessarily, while literally talking to someone of a different race.

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u/euphorb_enjoyer 3m ago

I’d rather you just read each comment step by step and answer your question yourself than me having to sit here and explain it to you

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u/Street_Estate2342 0m ago

Yeah you would walk away from this after what you did. That was some insane shit.

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u/handson729 16m ago

Except in this analogy men would be equivalent to white people, not black people.

That is a good point because black men do not exist. /s

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u/euphorb_enjoyer 5m ago

My point seems to have gone past you

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u/OkSky3150 1h ago

Men still have higher statistical rates of violence? It can change though

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u/Substantial_Judge931 36m ago

Do you believe men are inherently more dangerous because of our biology?

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u/OkSky3150 33m ago

Yes and also socialization. It is not a judgement on an individual man.

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u/Substantial_Judge931 29m ago

Yet it is a judgment on an individual man. Because you believe male biology makes someone dangerous

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u/OkSky3150 21m ago

It gives the potential to be more dangerous and the ability.

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u/Substantial_Judge931 19m ago

That’s still prejudging a whole class of humans on biological grounds. What’s your scientific evidence for that?

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u/OkSky3150 8m ago

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6318556/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11540993/ https://pdf.sciencedirectassets.com/277811/1-s2.0-S1877042812X0003X/1-s2.0-S187704281200287X/main.pdf?X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEA0aCXVzLWVhc3QtMSJIMEYCIQCKRjHR3coXWhzrqxq0uxJnNf68x%2BqEmGKvbECAvUhEYAIhAIE1uW0gJdLgcpdpCi%2BPqM24FJ5idiTabkuzEOHvogilKrsFCNb%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEQBRoMMDU5MDAzNTQ2ODY1IgwOVrZH0DEsSfiKofgqjwWkUz%2FNaBu2fsnmRtbXj2X1AYt9A9NRY1SGpFKz1JkJFgNbrWkc%2Bi9o9KywcrfcTAmnDwY%2FPeXmAg6pM52pIcA3ytZOhsqzQ%2FZQVRsbawfhFubFG%2FynBBjdY3Y6p9LjS9M8W8FPJJuNB1doJARYJUq%2F%2Fj05om3iVYzBENVBjUPUNII2KFlmweFJ4f7AsfM5MJH2mD8a1FTOWSMJSvkQ0C5NIFGNLncxTW95%2B46zHcEu2ENR3EdX9TT0IVwMkF2gS4IdU7DZ2%2Ftkp28h1rREQenkg8MdQFRGwOChjuAqHn2bji%2B946OmAvxDgKVPhKddK9GnMSZ22ZiozOj1HKOvedh5MKMdqfj%2B1BbH72cx0K2jzVi7XlsS1x6denPnd4eht3Ab5T4ZLKXB1W3c11M6CkzO6kzjU5VerBiyhYYZx0ELVLq%2Flfxn7vdAwNaUBJMpwgJYm8f0TWz6oDI9hcY82eUB9SOnTeaWT%2FgVR68Xh4Lirt2zaaGXVXo0hkxUpNOX3fJFAcw6z2IbmAZLb3smUxFGKysnNSYfaxQxsdqhfJZo%2Bqyivv%2FRnXJWR4KiAPvhxCOHvlsAWFqP84X5wyxyQPzAxn6RlY%2FbEku1EOFH9e%2BVxdZ4RLiGD6SXLMpeyqauC769XY6VHzoP0O2DJuBk%2FlVkcRdyUhgUSXuAKJLZ3wMUH1MS18HfSjdu85YN8Hup2Ef1t2JpFR0cz8ogaMA%2FkRjcMpcEyHpTDsl29QR5W3tSlfVpaSyV3XgdxmMmHYJuX7%2FW3ngPPmUpLYVO94KswkKm33U6tmogm4zGitZ%2BqbGJAWZupZ76%2FEsrRFaGuChurM3U%2FsNI8VmfFIzDA3k2uLdbd%2BMW0f44YTwsLw%2FDTrqkMLzMjNYGOrABysLfm%2Fe3MB%2BPVHPB0GCY32RJpFyV6cexCfU0CnlQS4HKyh%2BEr5qKu5yGwo7KkKywgxo9XkPvjsIiY7HTCD7mRAB%2B25alq1Ia9QhKgDc7vkT5I%2FjX7uJnJNYqAjNjPoRUR41swHfn6PkOPFSqxYgPF86sDnYN5oxoE6DMxvc7yBJoHOkLsXFAEJsz6wq4eTjUtXQSkLD5WO0limrR8OGQqoA4vEUNNQWJXzm9S0VjXu4%3D&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Date=20261005T054340Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAQ3PHCVTY3PZDAYOK%2F20261005%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Signature=a5c73bc8ac1efe493f5d1fa63aacd6a6befc7822061b5b3b6a8af5eb30f40b74&hash=898484b45f1f795d5f4157218f77ea51f805ba55757d3f8f96474d7ecfc43eb0&host=68042c943591013ac2b2430a89b270f6af2c76d8dfd086a07176afe7c76c2c61&pii=S187704281200287X&tid=spdf-4e1e51c7-1f1d-428a-b6ff-601a8ea9fced&sid=4fb909cd7c8e194d9038726783b12e74546cgxrqa&type=client&tsoh=d3d3LnNjaWVuY2VkaXJlY3QuY29t&rh=d3d3LnNjaWVuY2VkaXJlY3QuY29t&ua=1907025352015502530853&rr=a45a1c2f4de42724&cc=ca

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u/Substantial_Judge931 5m ago

I never argued with the idea that men are less aggressive. Testosterone makes boys and men more biologically aggressive. My question is why are men inherently dangerous? The idea that just because I have a lot of testosterone, that makes me a dangerous and bad person comes across as bigoted.

There are good men and there are evil men. Same with women

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u/OkSky3150 2m ago

This is not about one man. This about men in general.

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u/OkSky3150 1m ago

And I did not bring morality into this.

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u/GildedBlackRam 43m ago

It is both amusing and heartbreaking that people don't see themselves when they look back at fashionable prejudices of the past. They just imagine those people were like cartoon evil villains who reveled in their suffering and hatred of others, and they-- being so enlightened-- simply cannot be like that.

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u/boom9167 1h ago

There is far more genetic and psychological differences between a man and a woman compared to a white person and a black person. But neither should be isolated without considering other factors involved

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u/VKTGC 50m ago

If women point this out though, we’re misandrist.

The reason racism based on stats is stupid is because it’s got nothing to do with the race and everything to do with environment.

The reason it’s actually valid for women to fear men is because they could punch my face in with little to no effort and I could do nothing about it. It’s not the same nor will it ever be.

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u/Own_Hat584 11m ago

The reason it's valid is because the environmental cause doesn't matter if you're concerned about your own immediate personal safety. You should avoid certain neighborhoods for your own personal safety, whether it's genetic or environmental doesn't matter for that decision. 6'7" black man could punch a 5'2" Asian man in the face with no effort also, and that is genetic. But the Asian man isn't allowed to notice this obvious reality and act accordingly, but you are?

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u/VKTGC 6m ago

You’re forgetting the fact that him being a 6”7 man is the issue here and not the fact that he’s fucking black.

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u/MajesticArt6533 1h ago

Men’s crime and abuse rate points to real societal systemic issues and the more we try to rationalize and dismiss it longer it will take to solve

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u/Juanitasuniverse 1h ago

yep. people seem to understand intersectionality when it’s about themselves or their view, but refuse to apply it to things outside themselves.

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u/TotalACast 1h ago edited 1h ago

This is one of the reasons Intersectionality is fundamentally flawed on my view. It was never based on an authentic investigation of the statistics in the first place. It was always, at best, a weaponization of statistics to prove a pre-determined conclusion. 

When statistics are used in the opposite manner, indicting entire groups of people for some socially deplorable behavior, it is neither aware of the hypocrisy nor willing to entertain how easily its own methodology is used against itself.

Just to demonstrate my claim, a scientific attempt was made to demonstrate the statistical and quantifiable claims of modern Intersectional scholars, and the scientists in question found this basically impossible. Why was it impossible?

According to the paper:

There has been little consensus as to whether it is possible to quantify the complexities of intersectionality. In fact, other scholars have speculated that quantitative health research may not be well-suited to incorporating intersectionality because it is a conceptual framework that was not initially designed to quantify, predict, or describe health outcomes. This issue, as scholars have noted ( Bowleg 2008;McCall 2005), may lie in intersectionality’s apparent incompatibility with positivism, the epistemology that undergirds much quantitative health research. While positivism asserts that a sole “true” and objective reality can be discovered through well-designed and value-neutral research, intersectionality illuminates the many socially constructed realities that those who inhabit various intersections experience.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8119321/


To put it in Layman's terms, Intersectional "scholars" (hacks) reject Logical Positivism, the basis for science and statistics. 

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u/SnooKiwis1258 59m ago

"It was never based on an authentic investigation of the statistics in the first place. It was always, at best, a weaponization of statistics to prove a pre-determined conclusion."

I assure you that the original text - Crenshaw's 'Mapping the Margins' - is very much not a "weaponization of statistics". You could say that later authors have actively redefined the term, or that the term has undergone simple yet silent conceptual drift over the years, but it's either disinguous or uninformed to say that intersectionality has always been the "weaponization of statistics" you describe.

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u/TotalACast 38m ago

Crenshaw was a legal scholar - not a scientist, not a statistician, not a philosopher.

Her seminal work was overwhelmingly filled with legal arguments to support her claims and views, and relatively little use of statistics. Where statistics were used in her works, they were not used in why kind of scientifically peer reviewed way, nor was her paper or claims peer reviewed.

That tracks, because Crenshaw was a Feminist Standpoint Epistemologist. She was one of the formative creators of Critical Race Theory. And Critical Race Theory does not even attempt to hide its disdain for the idea of objective truth. 

"For the critical race theorist, objective truth, like merit, does not exist, at least in social science and politics. In these realms, truth is a social construct created to suit the purposes of the dominant group." 

From CRT: An Introduction.

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u/lilshayshayboo 1h ago

Girl whatever

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u/UberFarter 1h ago edited 1h ago

Men will get really mad at you for being wary of them but then they’ll never call out their bros or other men for making us wary.

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u/All_the_Bees 1h ago

Do you mean wary? Weary means tired.

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u/UberFarter 1h ago

Thanks fam, I was weary while I was typing that 😭

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u/BloodsAndTears 1h ago

And if something bad happens to you then it's your fault for trusting men.

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u/UberFarter 1h ago

Yes that’s what they say, which is weird because if most men are good why would they victim blame women like we should have expected men to harm us in the first place?

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u/sparklyjoy 43m ago

And men themselves will say so!

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u/ThePhilosopher_King 1h ago

No it would those who did the bad thing to her at fault (in this context)...

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u/QuarterNote44 1h ago

Not to sound too white knight-y, but I'm a man and I think it's smart for women to be wary of men they don't know. Not all men commit violent crimes. For sure. But if there is a violent crime, it's usually committed by a man. And the stakes are higher for women because of the general size and strength disparity. Acknowledging patterns doesn't make a woman a misandrist.

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u/UberFarter 1h ago

Ew a man being nice to a woman!? SHES NOT GONNA FUCK YOU SIMP (sorry I had to but honestly thanks.)

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u/Final_Boss_Jr 1h ago

Ohhh here we go.

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u/a_short_list 50m ago

Women do not oppress men. Give me a break.

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u/MonolithSZN 35m ago edited 10m ago

I’m a guy,

I get what you’re trying to say, generalizing is bad, and I absolutely agree.

However, the danger of reaching for extremes to justify your position is it downplays one issue to prop up another, and really that’s the main reason your opinion is controversial.

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u/Demonkingt 1h ago

rape is a great example of this issue. the FBI/DOJ directly have admitted women are raping but rape laws just outright ignore them which leads to no arrest and therefore a lack of female presence in data

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u/Demonic_Yandere 1h ago

Please send me that report or statistics

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u/Demonkingt 50m ago

1st link. the doj/fbi admitting to ignoring women

https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/attorney-general-eric-holder-announces-revisions-uniform-crime-report-s-definition-rape

2nd link. cdc covering male victims and pointing out a woman riding a man isn't covered legally. note: you'll notice "1 in 14 men made to penetrate". this page is from 2015. MTP only was studied late 2010 to 2017 so that's 0 in middle of 2010 to 1/14 during 2015. not the same time length as victims being penetrated.

https://www.cdc.gov/intimate-partner-violence/about/intimate-partner-violence-sexual-violence-and-stalking-among-men.html

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u/MinkoManiac437 1h ago

Exactly. As a male teen it sometimes sucks seeing insane instagram reels generalizing an entire sex saying insanely negatige things about men as a whole when I have yet to even really get a chance at existing yet. 

Like "every man has hurt a woman" or "they dont see us as human"

I know its only a vocal minoirty and no person irl has ever spout such BS to me or around me. Its just online but still isn't fun to here. If men do that they are called incels or degens but women do that its uplifting and empowering. Its so weird. 

They are just internet trolls though.

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u/gretchen92_ 1h ago

Awe, does it hurt hearing that men kill women constantly. That they kill their families so often that it’s not phrased as “family annihilators”

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u/_The_Real_Sans_ 1h ago

Does it feel good trying to shame some kid that just wants to be on the internet without being placed under the same umbrella as some terrible, terrible people. Did you get some satisfaction out of it?

One would hope being subject to years of unfair stereotyping growing up would help you empathize. Maybe take this as an opportunity to reflect on who you directed this comment towards and what you hoped to achieve by commenting.

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u/SlapfuckMcGee 1h ago

Yeah, you should definitely take it out on the kid

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u/Feldii 1h ago

I do hate it when someone acts like I have a say in someone’s horrific behavior just because we share the same gender. I can’t stop some guy I’ve never met from killing his girlfriend so please don’t blame me for it.

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u/deaddamsel 26m ago

When did this sub turn into honesthottakes: the gender wars?

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u/Spicey_Cough2019 23m ago

Shhhh rules for theee but not for meeee

Feminism 101

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u/UberFarter 1h ago

As soon as 1/3 women worldwide aren’t sexually assaulted by men maybe I’ll stop generalizing. It’s a hard maybe tho

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u/Naive_Resolution4186 11m ago

As if there aren’t men and boys who are sexually assaulted by women.

Would it be fair for me to judge all women because I have been abused by women sexually and physically?

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u/gretchen92_ 1h ago

Take my upvote from these fuckwits downvoting you.

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u/UberFarter 1h ago

It’s alright. I shall accept their boos for I’ve seen what makes them cheer 🤣

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u/NovelPackage4078 1m ago

Women are the ones who mostly support getting rated considering tou guys are usually pro immigration, did you know not all cultures are compatible with one another?

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u/mikelown 1h ago edited 1h ago

Ya misandry is wrong, anyone that thinks that way is a shitty person, same as racists.

Its not gonna stop them from doing it because theyre shitty people, but we can all collectively just tell them "ew gross" whenever they try to speak

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u/gretchen92_ 1h ago

Misandry and misogyny are not even comparable. One kills. The other calls for accountability.

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u/[deleted] 1h ago

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u/Stnmn 34m ago

Some of it calls for accountability, but current trends are largely bioessentialist, which undermines calls for accountability and feeds the redpill content churn. Misogyny kills, and post-2020 misandry content seems to mostly benefit misogynists.

Trans people end up an overlapping attacks from misogynists and misandrists too, which doesn't sit right with me.

If misandry was just calls for accountability and rage baiting sensitive men I wouldn't have a problem with it, but the behavior and content don't exist in a vacuum.

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u/baconwrappedanxiety 28m ago

“My preferred method of discrimination is actually a form of Justice”

Get the fuck off your high horse. There’s so much more nuanced conversation to be had on this topic but it’s all wasted if you can’t see how fucking polarizing and antagonistic your entire platform is.

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u/brain-eating-zombie 1h ago

One being worse doesn’t make the other acceptable.

Misogyny causing more severe harm doesn’t somehow redefine misandry as "accountability."

You can condemn both without pretending they’re equally harmful.

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u/UberFarter 1h ago

Misandry is just women not liking men and avoiding them. Misogyny is rape, assault, oppression, murder, etc etc which is why I don’t care about it just like I don’t care about “reverse racism” or “heterophobia”.

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u/Dentlas 36m ago

It's a bit more than that. For example, psychological social studies on boys are almost 100% used aggressively, and has extreme rates of data manipulation etc. Furthermore, there's an immense taboo and lack of funding on boys issues that may be correlated with social discourse, hate against men, or similar.

It is a very well documented and extremely bad situation, more and more sociologists, psychologists and researchers are pointing how the gap. Some actively fear beginning to look at it because it'd undermine years of genderstudies and expose a lot of dirt.

A good example commonly citied, is how a famous British study found hate against women vs men in teenagers, they had asked "Do you think feminism had gone too far?" versus "Do you think men should die" questions, labeled one as misogyny, and the other as misandry, then said misogony was extremely prevalent in men (despite girls having very similar numbers).

This is how it is throughout the entire field, it is for anyone who's studied research, an absolute horror fest of incompetence and data manipulation. You'd be cross to find a single study from the gender studies field which isn't manipulated or has bad ethics in some kind of way.

All of that stems from Misandry, and it is very, very dangerous.

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u/brain-eating-zombie 1h ago

Yes, that’s why I said misogyny can cause more severe harm, statistically speaking. But you’re defining the two completely differently.

Misogyny isn’t synonymous with rape and murder, and misandry isn’t synonymous with simply avoiding men.

Both refer to prejudice or contempt based on sex

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u/favorable_vampire 1h ago

Misandry is a symptom of misogyny. Fix the actual problem and see how fast they both disappear lol

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u/ThePhilosopher_King 1h ago

They never said it was. If you holding men accountable with criticism, then that's not misandry. Misandry is hatred/prejudice towards men or boys, which is wrong.

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u/Substantial_Judge931 21m ago

Misandry and misogyny are literally the exact same thing

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u/UberFarter 14m ago

Sure if you ignore human history, the law, culture, and reality.

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u/mikelown 1h ago

Ew gross

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u/IcebergLickingGuy 46m ago

What the fuck is this comment section?

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u/brain-eating-zombie 32m ago

It’s an extremely emotionally charged topic, so the comment section went about as well as you’d expect.

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u/Refurbished_Hole 44m ago

Yeah and both are right

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u/thinsoldier 23m ago

Disproportionate sentencing is more of a gender and state by state issue. For example there was a black woman in Illinois who broke her baby's back and got 12 years and served 6. There was a black man in Michigan who broke a baby's back and got 25 years. I don't know how many he served. There's a white man in Florida who made threats about harming a baby and then lunged at the baby. He never touched the baby. He's serving life.

Even in a country where everyone is the same race, it's usually very damned obvious when someone's entire identity is built upon a negative american stereotype and poses a threat.

My home country was poorer and less violent prior to a sudden increase in cultural influence being let in from the USA. It's not a race thing.

Since 1990 only 614 people have been exonorated by dna evidence in the USA. And only about half of them were black.

Is it over-policing when black people call the police for help the most?

Because Black Americans are statistically disproportionately the victims of violent crime, a massive volume of emergency 911 calls do originate from Black individuals and predominantly Black neighborhoods.

Data from the CDC and the FBI shows that Black Americans suffer from homicide and violent gun victimization at rates significantly higher than the national average. Because of this high concentration of violent crime:

  • Massive Call Volume: Hundreds of thousands of 911 calls for shootings, assaults, and homicides are placed every year by Black victims, their families, and neighbors desperately seeking emergency help.
  • Neighborhood Reliance: In high-crime urban areas, the 911 system is the primary lifeline. Responding to these calls makes up the vast majority of daily police activity in those sectors.

Despite the high volume of calls, a higher percentage of crimes go unreported in these communities compared to safer, wealthier, predominantly white areas. If you asked black people who have ever had to call the police if they feel over-policed, the vast majority will say they are severely under-policed. Sadly both the over-policed respondents and the under-policed respondents will blame it on racism.

Looking at only one set of statistics (like nationwide averages) can obscure the reality of what is happening on the ground. Black america desperately needs to look at their immediate surroundings and local statistics and act accordingly. Reality on the streets you walk every day could be hundreds of times worse than the national average and you'd be a fool to focus on a feel-good statistic you saw on facebook instead of the number of funerals for young black people happening in your local churches.

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u/Skinnyfat-Throwaway 2m ago

You all depress me.

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u/KINGXunshot 1h ago

Also, when it comes to men, it’s “men are responsible for their own actions”

Rather than, the obvious fact that we all know, that these behaviors are the result of social and cultural influence.

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u/gretchen92_ 1h ago

Both can be true.

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u/KINGXunshot 1h ago

How do you want that to be applicable in terms of justice? If it’s a social and cultural failing, they should be rehabilitated and properly socialized.

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u/VKTGC 1h ago

Does that negate the statement that men are responsible for their own actions?

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u/KINGXunshot 1h ago

Okay but what does that mean to you.

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u/Useful_Jelly_2915 1h ago

Oooo this is gunna be spicy comment section. I’ll be back in a few hours to see how it goes.

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u/[deleted] 1h ago

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u/HonestHotTakes-ModTeam 1h ago

Racism, sexism, xenophobia, homophobia, transphobia, and other forms of bigotry are not allowed. Content that attacks, degrades, or expresses hatred toward people based on protected or inherent characteristics may be removed and can result in a temporary or permanent ban.

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u/TotalACast 1h ago

I'm waiting for the day a man admits he engaged in a voluntary group sex activity to the police, continuing to date the person who instigated it, and then years later changes his story and smooth brains just believe it without any research and without a conviction in court.

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u/UberFarter 1h ago

And more evidence why we should continue being weary of men since many of yall don’t understand what consent is or how trauma works.

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u/TotalACast 1h ago

You don't seem to understand how innocent until proven guilty works. In this country, we don't have trials in the court of public opinion.

If these men are convicted in a court of law I'll change my tune, but declaring them guilty based on text messages and an ever changing narrative about what happened is unlikely to do it.

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u/perfumed_with_gas 1h ago

It doesn't sound like you're categorically opposed to gang rape and murder, then.

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u/LeGerardPetit 1h ago

There's been plenty of cases of this happening, why not actually fucking Google it before frantically typing?

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u/eeee_1234 1h ago

"plenty"

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u/UberFarter 1h ago

He can find like 2 whole cases on google compared to the millions of the reverse so it’s basically the same!!!

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u/eeee_1234 1h ago

Genuinely. They can't comprehend the fact that nobody is saying that no woman ever has done shit like this, but that it doesn't compare at all to the % of men.

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u/UberFarter 1h ago

But if you point out the huge disparity in gendered violence they get mad at you for misandry…. For noticing. Just don’t talk about it ever or you hate men!!!

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u/eeee_1234 53m ago

They'll just bring up men of color like OP as if those aren't also men lol.

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u/thegabster2000 1h ago

Name me all the cases.

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u/LeGerardPetit 51m ago

Briefcase, suitcase, vanity case, duffel bag, rucksack, tote bag

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u/UberFarter 1h ago

I’m waiting for women to oppress men and keep them as livestock all because their female gods told them to.

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u/BloodsAndTears 1h ago

And kill their male relatives for not being a virgin before marriage, getting raped, refusing forced marriage or dating outside their background.

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u/Special-Election3224 37m ago

White women owned black men (and black women) as slaves.

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u/imaworkersirrr 1h ago

It’s even worse. Women publicly shame criminals, but are obsessed with them in private. It’s all theatrics for politics. Legit every pos or criminal i know growing up ended up with women. Shit you even see it in the media when cases go nation wide and you have hundreds of women obsessing and pen paling with criminal men.

Atleast racist people are racist based off true stereotypes lol. And they’re not faking anything

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u/UberFarter 1h ago

It’s really funny to me how the post is about how women shouldn’t generalize then someone goes “women all want to bang criminals!” Pot, have you met kettle?

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u/_The_Real_Sans_ 1h ago

Same guy was also talking about racist stereotypes "being true". Like way to miss the point? 😭I thought we were talking about how generalizing people by immutable characteristics is UNIVERSALLY a bad thing 😭🙏

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u/wadejohn 1h ago

They’re not very private with these thoughts if the violent criminals look like Luigi

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u/UberFarter 1h ago

Men also want Luigi. Everybody wants Luigi. Luigi love defies all races and genders.

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u/United-Drop-6257 34m ago

It’s not statistics, it’s men. Men are proving the statistics themselves.

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u/drmehmetoz 1h ago

Indeed. Everyone loves discriminating and shitting on others, they just don’t want to be the person on the receiving end. People as a whole are immoral and shitty

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u/Grouchy-Culture3692 1h ago

Well ya but women will not like this common sense truth

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u/Oh_yeah12 27m ago

After reading this crap I’m voting for trump.