r/China • u/These_Wing_9389 • 17h ago
历史 | History 为什么中国不能像苏联、欧洲那样，不同省或者区域最终分解成不同的国家？
/r/China_irl/comments/1wxelyy/为什么中国不能像苏联欧洲那样不同省或者区域最终分解成不同的国家/7
u/Wilson-add2814 17h ago
Because like the Soviet Union its people overwhelmingly support it… they didn’t want to balkanize…
3
u/TenshouYoku 15h ago
Then you become a lame duck the same way the EU and modern day Slavs are.
The Chinese knew too well who wanted that and they aren't stupid.
3
u/Far-Muffin-8289 15h ago
Why can’t the US be divided too ?
0
2
u/WideElderberry5262 16h ago
中国人传统里大一统情节，不会分裂的，而且汉族独大。要分裂，最多西藏和新疆有一点点可能。欧洲本身就是不同文化不同语言。前苏联分裂也是二战以后吞并的时间太短，来不及把少数民族灭绝而已。现在俄乌战争，送去前线的炮灰，大部分是边疆的少数民族青年，所以说俄罗斯怎么不不会输，战争输了但是国内赢了啊。
0
u/Greedy_Reality_2539 15h ago
汉族搞一胎化玩崩自己生育率之后基本上就是“勇于私斗，怯于公战”的状态，还能有多少武德维持对境内其他民族的压倒性管控？中东王爷大笔的石油美元等着灌给西北的瓦哈比，炒鸡大将军打下来的地方可并不稳固。
1
u/AutoModerator 17h ago
NOTICE: See below for a copy of the original post by These_Wing_9389 in case it is edited or deleted.
发现很多人喜欢拿苏联解体结果或者欧洲各国来类比中国，觉得既然苏联可以分解成俄罗斯、乌克兰、哈萨克斯坦等国家，欧洲也有几十个国家，那么中国为什么不能按照省或者区域分成多个国家？
我觉得最关键的区别不是面积，而是民族、历史和国家形成方式不同。
苏联本身就是由多个具有较强民族认同的加盟共和国组成的联邦国家。俄罗斯、乌克兰、格鲁吉亚、亚美尼亚、哈萨克斯坦等，都有相对明确的民族、语言和历史认同，而且在苏联时期就拥有共和国的政治建制。苏联解体后，这些原本就存在的政治和民族边界，很容易转化成独立国家。
欧洲也是类似的逻辑。欧洲各国虽然不能简单说是不同人种，但长期形成了不同的民族、语言、宗教、王国和政治共同体。法国人、德国人、意大利人、西班牙人等，经过几百甚至上千年的历史发展，形成了相对独立的民族国家认同。
中国的情况则完全不同。中国绝大多数人口属于汉族，而汉族本身并不是按照省份分布的。广东、四川、山东、江苏、陕西当然有方言、饮食和地域文化差异，但我是广东人和我是一个独立民族、应该建立一个国家完全是两回事。一个陕西人、四川人、广东人可能地方文化不同，但仍然存在很强的中国和汉族历史认同。
更重要的是，中国的国家形成具有很强的历史连续性。王朝不断更替，疆域也不断变化，但中国作为政治和文化概念并没有随着王朝更替而消失。秦汉、隋唐、宋元、明清并不是几个完全没有关系的独立国家，而是在长期历史过程中不断继承、重组和演变。相比之下，苏联只是20世纪存在几十年的联邦国家，而俄罗斯、乌克兰、格鲁吉亚等民族和历史认同都早于苏联。
还有一个很重要的区别是中国的省本身就是行政区，而不是民族国家。四川、陕西、江苏、广东的边界主要是长期行政区划形成的结果，并不是按照民族国家边界划出来的。
中国历史上存在很多地方政权，但这些政权并没有持续发展成类似今天法国、德国、意大利这样的地方民族国家体系。
经济和人口流动又进一步强化了这一点。经过几十年的工业化和城市化，中国各省已经形成高度一体化的经济和社会体系。人口跨省工作、定居、婚姻，产业链跨省分布，全国统一市场也让省与省之间的经济边界越来越弱。一个地区有自己的文化，并不意味着它具备成为独立国家的条件。
所以，真正需要关注的是这些政治实体究竟是怎么形成的。欧洲很多国家是长期独立发展的民族和政治共同体；苏联是多个具有民族共和国身份的政治实体组成的联邦；而中国的大多数省份，则是在一个长期延续的统一国家框架下形成的行政区域。
因此欧洲有几十个国家，苏联能分解成多个国家，所以中国也应该可以分成几十个国家，这个逻辑本身就不成立。
欧洲的国家数量是几千年历史、战争、王朝、民族形成和国际政治共同作用的结果，并不是因为欧洲有几十个省。
如果未来真的出现中国不同地区走向政治分离，也不可能简单地按照今天的省界一省一个国家。它至少需要新的地方政治认同、人口和领土基础、独立的经济与政治能力，以及国际政治环境的配合。
国家不是把地图上的行政区边界重新描一遍，就自动变成国家。
===== ===== =====
WARNING: Users posting and/or commenting on politically charged topics are required to show their post and comment history at all times. Failure to comply will be considered a violation of Rule 2 and result in a permaban.
If you notice someone in violation, please report them by messaging the mods with a link to the post/comment.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
u/Complete_Structure_9 16h ago
Then the country on the West side will build an army and wage war to the countries on the East. Because those inland countries will be so poor and have no good thing to do.
1
u/purplepotatocookies 13h ago
回复的人大部分没看你写的东西，就像你说的大部分分裂主义者压根没去过中国，哪怕最低限度的实地调查就知道如果幻想分裂那边境线绝不是在现在行政区上描线
1
u/hotellonely 17h ago
只有地域之间压迫关系明显才会有真正的分裂，你问河南人河北人他们想不想分裂估计他们不想，你问他们想不想不被北京吸血他们就知道厉害了。问题是中国的行政区之间的压迫关系相比苏联各共和国之间要弱得多，并且转移支付的回血通道确实是在流通的，那这样的话事实上中国就是个非常整体化的大市场+大联盟，傻逼才会想从大市场分离出去。。。你问问申根区国家想离开欧盟吗，别说申根区了，就是非申根区的国家有几个想离开欧盟的
-2
1
u/DaimonHans 16h ago
Well, it's called Taiwan.
-1
u/These_Wing_9389 16h ago
Taiwan, both geographically and in terms of how it’s governed, could more easily function as a country. But given the current political situation and the whole reunification narrative, that’s clearly not realistic.
2
0
u/Kurichan77 16h ago
It’s what all the western corporations want
-1
-3
u/hiimsubclavian 17h ago
China is a 19th century empire masquerading as a 21st century nation-state. The Qing dynasty never broke up, CCP is still operating under a dynastic mindset where more territory and more subjugated races = stronger empire.
-1
u/timeforacatnap852 16h ago
You’re not wrong, but I see it from a different perspective (respectfully)
I see it as the CCP is constantly trying to fight to keep it unified, they generally with the exception o a Particular island (and related ocean boarders) aren’t overtly expansionist, and most of their international political positions aren’t overtly aggressive. I think ccp know if they don’t keep the country together it’ll quickly fracture and become like Europe, getting more and more fragmented and nothing will work, at that point their “power and influence” as a single trading block would be totally undermined, a unified China is the only reason it’s as influential and developed as we see it today.
0
u/hiimsubclavian 16h ago
I have a completely opposite opinion.
A unified China is why China has stagnated for the past 1000 years, a fractured europe is why european cultures became so dominant over the past millenium. Strength comes diversity and competing ideas, not unity and solidarity.
The period of China's greatest cultural growth came during the spring and autumn era. Confucius, Laozhi and other great philosophers traveled the nations peddling their ideas, and leaders tried those ideas out. Sun Tzu wrote his art of war.
Diversity over unity.
1
u/timeforacatnap852 15h ago
That’s fine, I’m not here to argue or change your mind, I appreciate your perspective and it’s interesting to see how your interpretation differs (just to be clear I’m also not saying or insinuating you’re wrong,, simply viewing things differently)
0
u/ApartExperience5299 16h ago
China can easily be divided, it already is, China isn't even at its full extent like the Qing. Tibet for instance can be independent. I'm not gonna hold my breath, but if there is a will and stars align China can easily get post USSR scenario.
4
u/Ok_Collar_7836 16h ago
你明显对中国的大一统文化一无所知。
0
u/ApartExperience5299 16h ago
Propaganda isn't culture.
2
u/Ok_Collar_7836 16h ago
秦朝、汉朝、隋朝、西晋、唐朝、宋朝（准大一统）、元朝、明朝、清朝都是中国的大一统王朝，你自己去算算有几个？这也是宣传吗？
0
u/ApartExperience5299 16h ago
Getting taken over by nomads on a flat plain isn't anything to boast about. Half of those dynasties aren't even Chinese. You have no balls to do any independence referendums in Tibet, Xinjiang, Guangdong etc, because the only reason you have Tibet in first place is through military conquest. It's still funny how you pretend to be a friend of russia when they gave you the biggest territorial loss.
2
u/Ok_Collar_7836 15h ago
It's hilarious. Across over 2,100 years of unified Chinese imperial history, the Mongols were literally the only nomadic force China couldn't beat back then. Meanwhile, dozens of nomadic tribes vanished or were wiped out because of China, and even the Mongols ended up being integrated into the Chinese nation. Do you seriously not even know this basic fact?
"Independence referendums for Tibet, Xinjiang, and Guangdong"? Who the hell do you think you are? If you're so confident, go ahead and try inciting them to secede, I'm eager to watch! To me, you are nothing more than a clown wishing for China's breakup.
Can you even distinguish between Tsarist Russia, the Soviet Union, and modern Russia? And who told you Russia is China's "friend"? Don't you even understand that international relations are driven purely by national interests? You are insanely naive!
1
u/ApartExperience5299 15h ago
unified
Good joke, also you got taken over by Jurchens and Manchurians, the Qing were Manchurians they even made you cut your hair like a slave.
Xi will break China before anyone else will.
You have no original thought, just a hole for propaganda, sad.
1
u/Ok_Collar_7836 14h ago
Your ignorance is beyond imagination. You don't even know that Manchus are literally the descendants of the Jurchens. Good grief, you just made another incredibly low level historical error. Is there anyone more ignorant than you?
0
u/ApartExperience5299 14h ago
I know they are, still both ruled over you. Sad state.
0
u/Ok_Collar_7836 14h ago
You are just someone with zero historical common sense. Talking to me about East Asian history? You are not even qualified.
→ More replies (0)
15
u/Duanedoberman 17h ago
I suspect that a lot of people who made a fortune out of the break up of the Soviet Union are working to do the same with China. They dont care about the population but want to get their hands on the country's resources so are trying to sow discontent.
It doesn't seem to be working so far but it wont stop them from trying.