The fact that these are allowed on the streets at all is beyond me
You need a special license to ride a motorcycle that you can only obtain after the age of 16; but you can ride an electric one with absolutely no oversight or regulation at all??
Parents who buy these for their kids do not give a fuck about their kids' lives. I will fight anyone who thinks otherwise
There are some guys (30-40 year olds) who have these “bikes”. The peddles, as you say, are just for show. They have a thumb throttle and just fly around the town. A big issue with them is that they do not follow any road rules or traffic patterns. They will go against traffic, on the sidewalk, and completely ignore stop signs and signals. Another issue is that they look like bikes but don’t behave as a bike. So as a motor vehicle driver it’s hard to predict their behavior. I say if it has a throttle it should have a license plate.
Agreed on the traffic rules thing. I guess people think that since they aren’t cars or motorcycles, they don’t have to follow the rules of the road. In my town, there are also a lot of people (including kids) who drive like this with ATVs.
The confusion between ebikes and emotorcycles is irritating. Our local news ran an piece on "ebike" dangers standing in front of a B-cycle stand (which are capped at 15 mph) talking about how ebikes can go 30 mph.
Then everyone gets pissy about ebikes and we have discussions of 'what to do about them'. Meanwhile the crashes are actually from e-motorcycles.
The difference between an e-bike and an e-motorcycle is marketing and legal loophole wrangling.
But no let's go hash out terms for 20 years and come up with 50 different categories for speeds instead of just saying "this is powered, so you need a {boating} license".
The fix: It has a motor? It requires a licence and insurance and helmet use then. No butts, this means lime too, who is fully in the "kill dem kids" anti helmet camp (it would hurt ridership).
It has a motor? It requires a licence and insurance and helmet use then.
Helmet, yes. Licence and insurance, only above 300W motors.
In my country, e-bikes are already limited to being pedal assist and speed limited to the median bicycle speed on a 300w motor, with no throttle whatsoever. It is no different than a normal bike.
The crashes we see on the news in my country, come from e-bikes & e-scooters imported from America that violate the laws already.
The difference between an e-bike and an e-motorcycle is marketing and legal loophole wrangling.
There are real differences.
A traditional e-bike provides pedal assist and won't go anywhere without you putting in some work. In an ideal world the mechanism would require you to put in a significant share of the work.
The modern e-motorcycles have a throttle, or have pedals which are mainly for show and only serve as a throttle (as long as you spin the pedals very slowly it will go at full speed).
These different vehicles bring with them very different mentalities and a very different visceral awareness of one's speed.
Yeah, no. I've got a 250w motor on my gotrax, a 500w motor on the shelf for a project, and enough welders and parts to make any form you're describing.
You're trying to make electric bikes legal for kids. You've bought into the marketing about "assistance".
They shouldn't be, at any assist level.
And if you're on a bike, you need to wear a helmet, electric or not.
So go be pedantic about categories all you like, the kids are dying...
Yeah, no. I've got a 250w motor on my gotrax, a 500w motor on the shelf for a project, and enough welders and parts to make any form you're describing.
If this were happening in any significant amount then there would have to be model approvals like there are for cars.
And if you're on a bike, you need to wear a helmet, electric or not.
I'm writing from a country where most people ride bicycles, only tourists wear helmets, and the road fatality rate is almost certainly lower than yours.
If this were happening in any significant amount then there would have to be model approvals like there are for cars.
There are? Class 1, 2, and 3. Most of europe and Asia already have fleshed out regulations for these things, thats why the speed limits are usually 16 or 28, because those are 25kph and 45kph.
I'm writing from a country where most people ride bicycles, only tourists wear helmets, and the road fatality rate is almost certainly lower than yours.
You also likely have significantly less cars and more walkable cities and stricter driving requirements.
Speed restrictions do make a difference. A 15mph assisted ebike doesn't do much for speed compared to a regular one except when going uphill, in which case you'll just be going the same speed as on a flat for slightly more effort. 20 isn't too much faster but anyone can easily exceed that on a regular bike downhill if they wanted to. Mandatory licensing and banning kids are separate issues entirely (the latter is just not enforced well here)
Speed restrictions only make a difference when they're followed, which requires an enforcement mechanism, and doesn't exist on any path without a police officer.
Motor restrictions are easy to spot violations from a cop car.
Quit trying to squeeze a spiky death ball onto a basketball court because they're both round.
I have a relative with a bad knee who can't bicycle any more, but goes along with us on (fairly short) bike rides using an e-trike that caps out at 12 mph.
Needing a license isn't an issue in her case (she's an adult, and an old one at that), but I'm sure there are also disabled kids out there who use eBikes or eTrikes for the same reason; your proposed "need a license if it has any power source" rule would be a problem since they aren't old enough for a license.
You don't need 50 different categories of speeds. You need two. "Below this speed is analogous to normal bicycling. Above this speed is not."
I totally agree, we need to ban those speeding motor vehicles that are killing children en masse. Where do I sign the petition to remove cars from the road ?
We are in fact not trying it. Cop pulls someone over on what's basically a surron with pedals.
"oh it has pedals you're legal"
Then they ride off at 40mph.
Has motor? Check. Equal to or less than 250W? all good. Greater than 250W? rules apply. This is pretty much what all of europe and Asia does, which is why we have 16mph and 28mph limits, because its 25kph and 45kph.
Them not being old enough for a license isn't a problem. It is the entire point. Putting young teenagers on motorized vehicles and releasing them into traffic is a disaster on every level regardless of whether they are disabled or not.
Disabled children are not uniquely deserving of traumatic injury.
The entire point is that not all motorized vehicles are the same. An eBike that's limited to 10, 12, 15 miles an hour is no more dangerous than a normal bicycle. There's no justification for treating them differently beyond convenience - "this is easier for us to regulate" - and the convenience justification is insufficient when it comes at the cost of causing harm such as not letting disabled kids bike alongside their healthy peers.
the ebike industry as a whole should be banned. It's an electric motorcycle. No matter how slow it goes.
It doesnt belong on bike trails, it should be used by kids under guise of a bicycle, it shouldn't be used by out of shape people to ride where they normally wouldnt because they dont have the experience/skill/strength needed to get there.
They are great for mobility. Build e-cycle paths, sell e-cycles and get e-cycle licenses. Heck, I would love if most of my "driving" was replaced by e-cycling.
But they are not bikes and should not be marketed as such.
Its also sold often to parents whose kids need to get places but the parents cant/wont drive them there..because they work, scheduling issues, laziness, kids want them, whatever reason
Some of the posts above have clarified my position very well and I will use it going forward.
Saying they need to be outright banned is the wrong mentality. We need to promote it along with updating infrastructure to support it. Bikes and scooters are unfortunately in a grey area where pedestrians think they’re too fast for the sidewalk and drivers think they’re too slow for the road. Proper education and safety training should also be promoted.
It has been defined for years, which is why most other developed countries in Europe and Asia does wattage, speed, and age limits.
Less than or equal to 250W? They are at least 16? All good. More than 250W? Needs to be registered, preferably plated, and you must be 18 or older.
We already get the 16mph and 28 mph limits from 25 and 45kph.
Requiring someone to get a motorcycle endorsement to go 16mph and be forced onto a major roadway and not use the bike lane is a recipe for disaster not progress.
My issues is no one enforces it, and parents don’t understand it, so a simpler system at point of sale would be better. The US market just doesn’t have the mentality to responsibly manage e-bikes. Seatbelts and helmets are already tough enough
Personally I think if you need the bike to go 16/28mph and travel long distances/haul weight you probably want something that goes faster and you might as well get a license. If you don’t need that, just get in shape. I full recognize that’s just an opinion though
Fuck that. After I became too disabled to ride my meat-powered bike more than a couple of miles, I became largely house bound, as I don't drive, and walking hurts me. It was absolutely life-changing to get an e-bike with help from the city of Portland, as part of program specifically intended to help seniors and disabled people become more mobile.
"out of shape people to ride where they normally wouldnt because they dont have the experience/skill/strength to get there"
Fuck that attitude. A lot of people would just like to commute via bike without needing a shower when they get to work. A lot of people would just like to run errands via bike without it having to be a major workout. A lot of people would just like to be able to carry 50+ pounds of groceries on their bike.
It's allowing e-bikes to have throttles that's the problem. If it has a throttle, it's not a fucking bike.
Classify anything with a throttle as a moped, with all the regulations that go with that, and you solve the problem without penalizing the people e-bikes were originally intended for.
Assuming of course you can get cops to enforce it, which is a whole separate problem.
I am happy for you (I really am, no sarcasm). Electric vehicles have really revolutionized transportation, and motor assistance, and will probably continue to do so as motor get smaller and more powerful. But I dont think disabled people are an issue; you dont see forum threads about people complaining about motorized wheelchairs and injuries/widespread issues with them
The able bodied people you mention should learn to ride bicycles or get a permit for an electric motorcycle.
I agree throttles are a problem, but disagree that is the delineation. If it has a motor, it's motorcycle. If it doesnt, its a bicycle. They make bikes with throttles that have pedals, or pedals and you can set the boost %. It's too complex to delineate every type of possible motorized vehicle combination.
If you want to carry 50lbs of groceries in a bike lane that designed for light transportation and non motorized vehicles, where motorized and non motorized vehicles are currently mixed, I think you should have the strength and experience to be riding a 65lb bike and all the handling issues that come with that in a lane where everyone else is riding 15lb bikes.
If you cant, you need a powered vehicle, and to ride it on the road just like everyone else who wants to commute to work without taking a shower, or wants to run errands on a motorcycle.
Besides all the kid issues, I see families with small kids riding bikes at the top of mountain roads with switchbacks to get a view, or on busy roads because now they "can"..becuse they have an electric motorcycle. Completely unsafe for kids. But the parent who don't know any better can now "ride their bikes" up the hill or in traffic altogether without worrying about speed issues, so why not?
Classifying anything with a motor as a motorcycle also gets electric dirt bikes off trails and at lower speeds that the trails were designed for. Nothing like people without sufficient experience doing laps on foot and bike trails where people have dogs and kids at 10-25mph on 60lb electric bikes.
It's too complex to delineate every type of possible motorized vehicle combination.
No. It's really fucking simple. If you have to pedal it and it can't go faster than meat-powered bicycles are capable of going, it's a bicycle. If you just have to flick your wrist to go faster than the Tour de France, it's a moped.
I think you should have the strength and experience to be riding a 65lb bike and all the handling issues that come with that in a lane where everyone else is riding 15lb bikes.
I carried 50 pounds of packages or law books on my meat-powered bike when I was a courier. It was not that specialized a skill. Adults carrying groceries or pulling trailers with their kids are not the problem.
This would barely be an issue if parents and police just did their fucking jobs and stopped buying/started seizing illegally modded e-bikes. I think throttles should not be a thing at all, period. But a legal e-bike throttle cuts out at 20mph.
You're literally saying that we should abandon the goals of every org trying to fight climate change by making biking safer and more accessible to a wider range of people just because some people are assholes.
We may be talking past each other. I think it's great that you had the skill to handle hauling that much weight on bike, especially when traffic is around. You had the experience and ability to. Most of the people I know doing so on electric motorcycles don't
If people want to give up cars for an ebike, get an ebike license. Its a simple solution that also allows police to do all the things they do with cars.
If it was as simple as you say, then why are we in the current situation? soley because throttles exist? T
The issue is lack of licensing. Anyone can ride buy and ride an ebike with zero education or repercussion.
But hey if they cut throttles out of too thats fine with me.
the issue is electric motorcycles are being sold and used as bicycles/
If you think the issue is lack of licensing, I question your fitness to navigate traffic on or in any sort of vehicle, since you apparently lack basic observational and reasoning skills.
I was behind one yesterday, looked to be a preteen riding it, and as I was following along from afar I was blown away to see him cap out at 40 mph! I was like 40!?
Just wait until you add in e-Moto bikes, which are likely what you're actually talking about since electric motorcycles are a thing and no one is buying them for their kids lol
Many Ebikes can go 30mph tho? My Lectric went 28, other brands can go faster but are usually limited to 28, but you can cut a wire and then it goes faster.
Also the crashes are in fact from both ebikes and the Sur-ron type bikes. I've watched no less than 10 kids eat shit on ebikes either hitting a car, getting hit by a car when they didn't stop for a red light or stop sign or crosswalk, or just hitting something they target fixated on.
In the very specific instance I referenced, the reporter was standing in front of a rack of bikes limited to 16 mph and explaining how 'ebikes like these...' which is factually incorrect.
Im sure you can hot wire a lot of things to do what they arent designed for. We used to take the governor off our golf cart. That doesnt mean reporters should go to the golf course saying "these golf carts are dangerous because they can go fast"
No mention of the differences between class 1, 2, or 3 ebikes or the e-motorbikes (or whatever theyre called).
Are they though? They're illegal in my city for kids under 16, but I watched a kid go right past a police officer this week. They need to start seizing them if they see a kid riding it, and charge their parents for reckless endangerment or something.
After renting one while on vacation, I really want to buy a decent ebike because the ability to just putter around and say "fuck that hill" is very satisfying to me. I have no interest in a throttle, I just want something that feels like a bike with cheat mode.
But I worry that as soon as I buy one, the legislation will change and the bike will be banned alongside those shitty emotos.
My father and my brother had e-bikes. My father's e-bike weighed ~60 pounds. He could pedal it, but it was a bitch and a half. My brothers e-bike was closer to 100 pounds and the only way the pedals could do a damned thing is if he had the pedal assist at max down hill.
The last sentence isn't exactly meaningful with respect to safety conditions. Pedal-assist speed capped e-bikes ridden on dedicated bicycling infrastructure by helmeted riders are overwhelmingly safe, but the resistance from the unpowered electromagnets and the weight of the battery would make it hard to pedal them uphill without power.
Yup, don't get me wrong I would ride the absolute lithium out of a Surron, but they should not be on the roads without at the very least a motorcycle endorsement, they should not be on bike paths or in bike lanes.
There was a time where people who liked the E Bikes could have been on the forefront of regulation to make rules that actually made sense for the community, age limits, speed limits, power limits, anything over certain power or speed limits needed to be registered, helmet requirements.
Could have worked out some sort of safety class at schools to teach people how to safely ride them, but nah, people I talked to about this stuff were completely opposed to it, believed they should be able to ride a Stark Varg on the bike path if they wanted, and charging 10 dollars to register the bike is, and I quote, "tyranny".
I think the parents buying them may not be aware or simply don't care.
The situation is completely out of control in a lot of places. I know if I was a kid today I would be tearing it up on a surron. And I would also probably be injured.
Which is insane to me. 2020-2021 was the year of the E-bike. People bought them with their stimmys like crazy.
I have come close to almost clobbering some kids on these e bikes going 28mph blasting through red lights, stop signs, and crosswalks.
When I was a kid I sorta understood it with my parents and violent video games, I wouldn't expect my tech illiterate mother to watch a youtube video on the game I wanted to play from sheer indifference.
but if I had a kid at 18 or 20, that kid would be around 18 today, I just can't imagine a world where my kid tells me they are thinking about getting or just want an E bike where I just don't do at least a tiny bit of research into them.
16mph hard limit? 250 watts? Yeah sure whatever.
31 hp Surron ultrabee? I had a 2012 ninja 250 that only had 29hp and I could take that shit on the highway.
"Every human being has to be born ignorant and, for a time, live in ignorance, but if they remain ignorant, that is their own fault." -Earl Nightingale
Obviously this doctor is speaking from an American perspective and she explains that there’s a power output/speed whereby they stop being regulated as an electric bike and become an electric motorcycle.
Similar laws exist in the UK.
People make choices to completely disregard the laws and regulations around these things.
Part of the issue too is just like when I was a teenager with the moped/scooter thing is these kids are modifying these electric scooters to make them go faster which makes them much more dangerous.
Also where I live the city next door rents them out and what ends up happening is these kids abandon them everywhere. They are just lying on street corners dead. Their meant as transportation around just that city and we even find them abandoned in my city.
Unfortunately I believe they have GPS trackers on them and I would be charged with theft. I think what happens is when they are abandoned the city goes around and collects them and takes them back to the charging stations.
Part of the issue is that because there's no law against using them on private property, there's no law against selling them. Even though hardly anyone is actually buying these things to use on private property.
People using these things on a public road are typically committing a whole bunch of offences: riding a moped without a licence, without registration or plates, without insurance, without MOT (not sure if the three year exemption applies to something that was never legally roadworthy to start with), without a helmet (cycle helmets aren't sufficient for a moped, and a lot of people don't even wear those).
Maybe we need a flat £1000 tax on non-street-legal e-bikes. Also a requirement that the legal status is clearly stated on any advertisement or offer of sale. With Amazon being jointly liable for non-compliance by third-party sellers.
Oh, that's so sad😢 ngl I'm kinda scared nowadays when I walk home, I had kids full on speed right by me and I didn't hear them come up at all, if I swayed just a little bit to either side I could've gotten hit too
I’m inclined to agree with you. I don’t know how ignorant you have to be to not see how fast these things go and then not immediately think “Hmmm, I wonder if my 11 year old has the skills, knowledge, and good judgement to be riding this incredibly fast contraption through traffic with no helmet or supervision?”
There are so many cities that provide them as public transit options, pay a couple bucks and have a pass to ride all day, some are free. There are no helmets with the ones I've seen.
A motorcycle, something that has been developed for like 100 years.
then you go frame rigidity? don't need it
good suspension? don't need it
rigid and wide wheels? don't need it
petrol engine? no we have an electric motor
huge twin disc brakes? don't need them
you now have a cheap ebike, something that can go far faster than it's actually stable, faster than it can quickly stop and can't handle bumps at those speeds either.
early motorcyclists learnt with blood that you can't just put an engine on a bicycle, and we're re-learning that
Bicycle frames are far more capable than you think which is exactly why they started from bicycles. Not to mention that most bikes in this class are actually mopeds, not motorcycles. You'd also be surprised by modern hydraulic disc brakes on bicycles, theyre absolutely enough for them. Stability is also a per frame situation. Most also have front suspension. You can just put an engine on a bicycle, why else has it survived to this day?
that's the difference in strength and rigidity, I can't be bothered explaining it to someone who doesn't know the difference or why motorcycle frames are built so differently.
I did. People arent going to push bicycle frames endlessly. At some point they will just buy a motorcycle as you cant really push the dropouts past 5kw without serious bracing or custom frame arms.
they don't need to push bicycle frames "endlessly" I've seen people get speed wobbles going 45mph on non ebikes, downhill. that's not a lot of speed. anyway this clearly isn't going to be productive
I don't want to get involved anymore in this.
how stupid to be involving arbitrary definitions, I could equally add its not "moped speeds" because it's not a step through frame. It's just silly.
i don't care what "moped speeds" or "motorcycle speeds" are, they're built different to bicycles and it's more than enough to hurt you
I love in Europe. A city close to my home town tried banning e-scooter companies from establishing in their town. E-scooter companies took them to court for "putting restrictions on free enterprise" and WON. So now this town HAS to allow scooter companies. Why??
Not knowing any more of the circumstances I would actually agree that banning e-scooter rentals wholesale is an overreach. Why should I be able to rent a car or a motorcycle but not an electric scooter?
But heavy safety regulations on their design and requiring companies to ensure anyone who rents one has a license that qualifies them to operate it and brought or loaned the necessary safety equipment? That I'm on board with.
Why should I be able to rent a car or a motorcycle but not an electric scooter?
You have to be a licenced driver to rent a car or motorcycle.
To rent an electric scooter you have to be willing to tick a checkbox in an app that says "I am 18 or older". Even if the app required a scan of a licence, many kids' parents would supply theirs for this purpose — the same parents who currently buy overpowered e-motorcycles for their children.
Did you just accidentally skip over the second half of my comment or...?
I want them to require licenses. Driving without a license is illegal no matter the conveyance. If people lying to apps is a problem, make that not an option.
Here (Netherlands) they are banned nationwide by the traffic code.
I think that's wise; there's no real place for them. On the footpaths they are a hazard to pedestrians. On the very dense and crowded cycle paths they are a hazard to themselves. With three modal divisions of roads there's not enough room to give them their own.
The uk have pushed the use of companies or more made them available while banning personal electric vehicles just like the hoverboards and bikes over a set power are treated the same as cars, so insurance etc
But you can get the app and pay to use the monetised ones in the area without issue, saw three scooters with 8 lads total passing the police in town the other day and all was fine
My town’s police department keep posting on facebook how you have to be 16 to ride the e-scooters and e-bikes and wear helmets no matter your age. But I keep seeing little kids, like 10, ride around town on e-scooters. I had gotten an e-scooter for free and those things are fast and too wobbly for me. I passed the scooter on to a kid starting college.
E-bikes are made in China and they all use more or less the same motors because of economies of scale. They than throttle them using software or another mechanism limiting the power it can produce. Of course since the motor is physically capable of much higher speeds, people will circumvent the throttling mechanism.
So a ban should be posed on the power of the motor itself, not the throttled power it produces or lists.
I'm a high school teacher and completely agree with you. I am terrified of this generation starting to drive cars. Speeding around in traffic on scooters with apparently no value to their lives or the lives of others is just as scary and shocking.
What about the parents who buy little dirt bikes and those annoying tiny motorcycles? To me same thing and it's been a thing for decades.
The real problem imo is the same issue in a lot of places. Parenting has gone down. We make it hard to parent, via all the crap we push on everyone. Parents also have been passing on consequences, see numerous parents voted for a rapist, they think anything their kid does is freedom!
That same stuff used to always happen but it was less parents and the ability to buy said bikes was less. Both have climbed, increasing the chance the idiot parent is giving motor vehicles to their idiot child and then looking away.
In some states like CA, you also have to take a special dedicated two-day in person, practical rider safety course under a certain age if you want to get a motorcycle license and be insurable.
Lots of ignorance tbh. My wife’s had a couple concussions and TBI. It’s no fucking joke. Refuse to let my son do shit without a helmet. I think a lot of people just think it’s normal to get head injuries/injured. Broken bones heal, but concussions can fuck you for life.
Laws are slow to catch up with technology. There are laws regarding ebikes and what class is allowed to do what, however bikes get modified and some cops are slow or don't have the time to enforce. I can't count the cars in my neighborhood with illegal tint.
I bought one for my kids, they were $100 each and I tried it out and got it up to 26mph and to me that was way too fast. Especially considering a people could take you out.
The app has a speed limiter on it so I made it 17mph and told them the scooter was just a piece of shit and that’s as fast as it can go.
They rarely use it now cause they’re pretty much outlawed in the county I live in.
I mean, the fact they're allowed on sidewalks/mixed use trails is the real problem. Roads are perfectly fine for e-bikes and I think the actual laws in most states are fine too, but they're just not followed/enforced in the slightest. In my state, 50cc mopeds: must wear helmet, must stick to roads under 35mph, license or learner's permit required, cannot go on mixed-use paths or bike lanes, no insurance required, no registration required. E-bikes: no mandatory helmet for those over 16 (This is an oversight for sure but tied to Georgia's general laws on bicycle helmets), no more than 1000W of power, engine must not be able to power it past 20mph on its own, can go on mixed-use paths and bike lanes (this is a problem even at 20mph though, IMO), no license required, no insurance required, no registration required.
So the laws are at least somewhat commensurate between the two, which makes sense to me, but the reality of adherence/enforcement makes e-bikes a total nightmare. I constantly see e-bikes that have both more top speed and torque than my 50cc moped flying around on sidewalks, bike lanes, and walking paths, but in those cases they're just actually breaking the law; if I tried that shit on my moped, I'd be ticketed at the very least. Once e-bikes go over 20mph they've become a motor vehicle and legally can't do anything but ride on the rode just like a moped, but nobody enforces it so the laws are meaningless.
So yeah, I do think the laws need to be updated to include a mandatory learners permit/license, a mandatory speed governor of 10-12mph on mixed-use paths and bike lanes, and a mandatory helmet law for all riders, but it's kind of a moot point when they don't enforce the laws they already have on the books.
The City of Phoenix has regulations. You’re supposed to be over 16, and need a permit. I don’t think they’ve been able to enforce, though, because it’s definitely a problem here.
Visited a friend of mine recently, their neighbor has one of these e-bikes. I’ve met them several times before, and they definitely love their kids, they’re a great family. They grew up not very well off, and are now both extremely successful. They spoil their kids, because they want their kids to have a better life than them. I don’t think they understand the safety risks here. It’s a poor judgement to say none of these people give a fuck about their kids.
Not okay to spoil your kids and not okay to let them ride ebikes without helmets. When you care more about being Cool Dad because of your childhood trauma than being a functional parent then no, you don't really give a fuck about your kids because you're only seeing them as extensions of yourself.
Part of their job as parents is to research and gain a thorough understanding of the risks before buying something like an e-bike. If they bought one without bothering to do the research or understanding the safety risks, then no, they clearly don’t give a fuck about their kids if they couldn’t be bothered to do a five second google search
You can’t argue with the morons on Reddit. They know all, and probably don’t have any kids either. Seriously, don’t listen to the clowns in this thread.
Wait til you learn about cars. Can you imagine giving the keys to a 2-4 ton machine capable of going 150mph and responsible for 45,000 Us deaths annually to a 15 year old?
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u/TheMaStif Jul 19 '26
The fact that these are allowed on the streets at all is beyond me
You need a special license to ride a motorcycle that you can only obtain after the age of 16; but you can ride an electric one with absolutely no oversight or regulation at all??
Parents who buy these for their kids do not give a fuck about their kids' lives. I will fight anyone who thinks otherwise